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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 4376378" data-attributes="member: 2011">First off, comments like this are not allowed here. You can disagree without stating that everyone who disagrees with you in your very first sentence is out of their mind.Secondly, in the other thread which started this discussion, I stated that Wizards do not get the best control spells in the game. I did not state that Wizards were not the best controller in the game.You changed the conversation to that. I agree with you on that. Wizards do have more control spells and more opportunities for control, hence, they are the best controllers. If you want to continue to debate that Wizards are better controllers, I won't debate you on that.However, Clerics often get better control spells in many cases at the same level due to the fact that many of their control spells target enemies whereas most of the Wizard control spells target creatures. This is a huge boon for Clerics, even if the spell itself is weaker. And at some levels, the spell itself is not weaker.Let's take first level as an example:Cleric Level 1 EncounterChannel Divinity: Turn Undead - Undead only, damage, push, and immobilizeCause Fear - Single target move away, provokes opportunity attacks. For first level, this is pretty decent movement control, especially when combined with other effects.Divine Glow - Enemies damaged in blast plus allies +2 in blast. Damage, but targets enemies which makes it real nice around Defenders.Level 1 DailyAvenging Flame - Single creature damaged and target can save against damage, or it can attack, that choice is a control.Beacon of Hope - Enemies in burst weakened plus healing allies. Again, enemies, not creatures.Guardian of Faith - Cleric's weaker version of Flaming Sphere (requires attack roll)Level 1 EncounterChill Strike - Single creature damaged and dazedIcy Terrain - Creatures damaged in blast plus prone and difficult terrainLevel 1 DailyFlaming Sphere - Single creature damage, mobile, damages adjacent creatures (damage only, no control)Freezing Cloud - Damage onlySleep - Single creature slow and possibly UnconsciousWhile it is true that in some cases here, the Wizard's power has more control or is more powerful, it is also true that the Cleric's have more control in some cases as well.Avenging Flame is much more controlling than Chill Strike.Beacon of Hope is much more controlling and useful than Freezing Cloud. Freezing Cloud does damage. Heal/Debuff many vs. damage a few. Debuff tends to be more controlling than damage (unless the damage bloodies or kills the opponents, then it has some measure of control).At a given level, none of the Cleric spells should be better control spells than Wizard spells. But, this is not the case (and especially not the case at higher levels).17th level Encounter Enthrall vs. Titan's Crushing Fist. No contest here, in fact, no contest against any of the Wizard 17th level Encounter spells (against a single target, Ice Tomb is not really better because allies cannot target that foe).</blockquote>

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