Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="RFisher" data-source="post: 4610534" data-attributes="member: 3608">I don’t think I’ve played enough 4e (a handful of sessions) to form much of an opinion.About all I can say about it is that it has lead me to question some of the things I thought I wanted from an RPG by actually giving them to me. (Which, oddly enough, was my eventual conclusion concerning 3e as well.)I think trying to come up with a clear definition of hybrid is beside the point.So far, the best introductions to RPGs that I’ve experienced are the 1981 D&D Basic Set and Prince Valiant. I think two of the important qualities of them are that they are both relatively “complete” (though PV moreso) and that no reasonable person would define them as a hybrid rather than a straight RPG.(Though PV does try to make a distinction between itself—a “storytelling game”—and RPGs. Despite that PV is clearly an RPG.)Perhaps it also has something to do with the lack of dungeon tiles or minis or such accessories. I don’t know about that, but it is something they have in common.People who are going to be RPG fans don’t need anything to get them started but an RPG. Rather, there can be aspects of an RPG that make it less suitable as a introductory game. The problem with 4e is simply that it is too complex. And, IME, a simplified version of a complex game still isn’t as good at the task as the 120 page PV game.The caveat here is that I’m speaking about people who don’t have access to experienced RPGers. Nigh any RPG can be a good introductory RPG if you have an experienced GM.That said, when I tried a few sessions with my son when he was around 5 to 6yo, even with me as GM, I found PV to work better than even the 1981 D&D Basic Set.Hmm. Some of the bits I enjoy about Dungeon!...Some of the characters are “stronger” than others, but they have higher victory conditions. So, if you play the wizard, you need to head straight towards the deeper levels to have any chance of accumulating your higher quota of treasure before the elf gets the little amount he needs.That brings up the question of how to get to the lower levels. Do you hope you can find a secret door quickly for a direct route? Or do you go the long way? Can you use a teleport spell or two to get there quicker?If you’re the super-hero, do you slum on the lower levels for a bit in the hopes of finding a magic sword? The monsters won’t be a danger to you, but you may lose valuable time.The magic-items—ESP medallion and crystal ball come to mind—can be used to great effect once found.Planning your path can mean a lot. How many rooms will I be able to explore without going through a chamber if I go this way rather than that? Chambers are the equivalent of wandering monsters. They are intersection rooms that contain only monsters—no treasure.Do I take on that monster who is now guarding all the items it got from killing me and another character, or do I just write that stuff off and continue looting unexplored rooms? Killing that one monster will earn a lot of loot, but it is probably a pretty tough monster to have accumulated that treasure.I also love the way that Wizards can cast a spell blind into a room from the hallway. It might be a waste of a spell (you choose fireball and the monster turned out to be immune to it), but you don’t have to worry about the monster counter-attacking.Which brings up the resource management of spells for wizards.It’s a simple game. Basically a distillation of the naïve depiction of early D&D. Not really an RPG in any sense, but a fun board game.BTW, Dungeon was actually designed by a member of the Blackmoor campaign after Arneson ran an expedition into the dungeons under Castle Blackmoor. Dungeon was demo’d to Gygax when they went to demo Blackmoor to him. Gary said Dungeon itself was an influence on D&D!</blockquote>

Verification