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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 4711697" data-attributes="member: 2011">My conclusion from this encounter (small sample set, I know) is that Epic level is not quite as tough as people make it out to be. The PCs have a lot of powers, feats, and abilities at their disposal. This results in a lot of ways to help allies and hinder/harm foes, even by semi-randomly generated PCs.These particular PCs did not have a lot of extra healing in the group. The Cleric was extremely limited in this area due to random power selection.They also had very few Leader type synergy powers, again because of the random selection.Even so, there were a lot of options available to handle bad situations. My friend had no real problem keeping the PCs healed and giving additional saves to allies in order to get rid of conditions.I don't think my friend felt overly challenged at all. A bit overwhelmed with 30 sheets of paper, but not challenged. I do not equate grindy with challenged. Sure, every PC got bloodied, some of them several times. But there was no real threat here. The fight was actually fun until it became time to take out the Ghoul King. Then it just became annoying.Part of the issue here is having an AC = 16 + Level Elite creature 5 levels higher than the PCs. I suspect this is not just true at level 22, but also at most levels. When I look in the MM, the only AC = 16 + Level Elite creature 5 levels higher than first level PCs is the Kruthik Hive Lord.I will run an encounter with the Kruthik Hive Lord plus 1 Kruthik Adult and 1 Kruthik Young and 2 Kruthik Hatchling Minions (total XP 862 or about 3 levels higher as per the DMG guidelines, just like the other encounter although slightly weaker XP-wise) against these same PCs at first level. This encounter at first level seems more like a TPK than the one at level 22.</blockquote>

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