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Message: <blockquote data-quote="outsider" data-source="post: 4713802" data-attributes="member: 54690">I think something to ponder is what the designers of 4th ed consider to be a challenging fight.  I think the intent is for character death to be pretty rare, so I don't think character death is neccessarily a part of a challenging fight.  I am quite sure encounter length has little to do what they are going for in a challenging fight either.  I'm sure they have no intent on hard fights taking 10 hours to play out.  I highly suspect that resources expended is intended to be a very important metric on the challenge of a fight.Also, perhaps the intent of the Expertise feats isn't actually to make hard fights easier.  Perhaps it is to make long fights shorter.  Your player group had that fight won, by the sound of it.  How much faster would they have won if they all had +3 to hit?  How much less resources would they have expended?  It sounds like you've got alot of notes.  If you noted the attack rolls, add +3 to all the misses and if they now hit, assume that the attack did average damage.  From there, you can answer those questions.It's noted in this thread that inability to hit was one of the primary reasons that this fight got so grindy.  It's also presumed that a grindy fight is a bad thing.  One would think these new bonuses to hit would actually go towards solving the grindiness problem, and thus should be welcomed.</blockquote>