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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 4713920" data-attributes="member: 2011">I think a challenging fight should result in unconsciousness or at least close to unconscious for at least one PC though as a general metric. A PC did go unconscious in this encounter, but not until round 18.I think that all fights should not be challenging. Some should be easy, some standard, and some hard. It's not that fights should always be challenging (as per the anti-grind threads), its that fights should often be interesting. If a DM challenges his players every time, he is just begging for TPKs. But, a DM can make even an easy fight interesting with enemy makeup, terrain features, traps, etc. Another way to make a fight interesting is to throw enemy tactics in that the players rarely see or have never seen.I also think players get more excitement / thrill out of a fight if there is something to lose or risk. It does not matter if hit points are lost because they come back so quickly. Undead taking away Healing Surges is an example of something that is a bit scary. Players try to avoid or kill right away some undead for that reason.Two house rules that I have that can make encounters seem more threatening and scary (didn't use any house rules in this encounter) are:1) Wound points. The PCs get wound points equal to their Constitution. A PC takes a wound point when hit with a critical, when they fall unconscious, and each time they miss the stabilization roll when unconscious. Wound points get healed one per day for extended rest, one point max per day for a healing spell, one point max per day for a potion of healing, two per day max for a potion of vitality, three per day max for a potion of recovery, and heals all wound points for a potion of life. If at half wound points, the PC is at -1 for all D20 rolls. If at zero wound points, the PC is dead.2) -1 to all D20 rolls (PCs and monsters) when bloodied.Hit points are scraps and bruises, wound points are serious wounds. The wound point system is more difficult to heal (typically 2 points per day max at lower levels, typically 3 points per day at higher level due to cheap potions of healing). PCs who are wounded are less effective and players want to avoid that.There is suspense involved with these types of rules. I'm sure they are not everyone's cup of tea and they can make a fight fractionally more grindy, but they add dread into an encounter. Enemies are threatening because it's not just hit points ho hum, don't bother healing me cause I'm ok. Every hit can be a real threat and multiple hits will be a real threat.If a player feels suspense or dread on occasion, the DM is doing something right. If a player does not ever feel suspense or dread unless the PC dies, then the game is not as thrilling. IMO.The problem is two fold with the new rules:1) They cost a feat. That's an error in judgement by WotC. They should have just put in an errata. The math should be built into the system without a specific feat being required.2) The +3 at Epic level seems slightly too high. It doesn't take into account synergy bonuses or other ways like feats or Paragon classes to gain a +1 (or more) to hit.There were two reasons this fight was grindy. The slight math problem and using an Elite foe 5 levels higher. At level one, an Elite foe 5 levels higher with some allies is just begging for a TPK (Irontooth is only Elite 2 levels higher, although he had a lot of help). Players are a bit scared at level one with a hard encounter. At level 22, it's just grindy, even if one were to fix the math.</blockquote>

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