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Message: <blockquote data-quote="dm4hire" data-source="post: 4545062" data-attributes="member: 14848">Well I see part of being a mature game as pulling out the stops and actually saying that Warlocks make deals with demons/devils to the point they've sold their souls away.  Instead we have pacts that barely mention anything infernal.  Evil is completely glossed over to the point it's shunned.  Past editions left it be, but it was there at least without warnings, tempting, oh so tempting...  Anyway a few flashes tastefully done artwork in a book doesn't make it porn.  I love a lot of the artwork in WoD which adds a lot to the mature feel I'm referring too.  There could be art along the lines of Hackmaster but down with out the humor aspects, reminiscent of the Deathdealer portraits.  Heroes wading through foes or smashing undead.  There are a few pics along that line in the PHB and such, but for the most part the pictures are more posing shots, weapons drawn, flexing, and stuff like that.  Ohh, pretty pictures.I personally didn't see BoVD as being as blatantly over the top evil as everyone made it out to be.  In that regard I'm not talking about characters running around raping sheep and what not, I'm talking about the feel that the book contained.  When you read that book you know that it's aimed at a mature audience.  No question about it.What I'm really thinking is presenting D&D in a mature way that PCs aren't necessarily good guys.  I'm talking about some our heroes and others are anti-heroes.  I know this can be done homebrewed, but what if D&D from the ground up had been presented that way.  Elric type characters who were just as likely to consort with devils as they are to smite in the name of a god.  Heroes that for better or worse have the option of calling on both sides without restriction other than the cost of their own soul or sanity.  Mix more of the Cthulhu aspect that WotC seems currently bent toward but with the darkness that's really suppose to surround it.  That's the maturity I'm talking about.I'd love to see Warlocks built with power that really reek of evil that cause changes to them to the point they are slowly transformed into something unnatural.I'm also thinking maturity along the lines of Theives World.  Rogues making deals and just as likely to kill the person they deal with after the money changes hands.There's a level of maturity that can be reached that doesn't offend or at least not offend the majority.  That's the maturity I'm wondering about.  What aspects of Elric, Thieves World, Black Company, etc would you like to see brought into D&D if it was done for a mature audience?Insanity rules are a mature theme and I know a lot of people who'd like to have a decent set of rules for 4e.</blockquote>

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