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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Desdichado" data-source="post: 4366137" data-attributes="member: 2205">What facts did you provide?  The only really factual argument you rebutted was the one I didn't make.The characterization.  "Pre-fantasy" characters were not, as a rule, fully fleshed out individuals, they were heroic ideals writ larger than life.Granted, some fantasy characters are like that too, but most works of any consequence are not.  Frodo or Bilbo, for example, were clearly Edwardian country gentlemen who desired to avoid adventure, and had very real concerns and personalities that modern audiences could relate to.  No pre-fantasy hero was ever like that.  Conan too, for other reasons; he was a realistic, flawed individual; larger than life and at times absurdly superhuman, but at the same time reveling in cheap and tawdry thrills, and possessed of little ambition other than to party at the end of every caper.  He related to modern audiences because he was written completely differently than any other prefantasy character had ever been written.In any case, I'd like to see some of your facts.  By and large, you're ignoring most of my posts, needling out one little line or phrase that you don't like, and then dismissing the rest of the post entirely.  If you want to have a discusssion, it would certainly help foster the discussion if you addressed:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Differing authorial goals</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Why a modern point of view suffusing the story is irrelevent</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">characterizations that never existed in pre-fantasy</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">plot structures that never existed in prefantasy</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Story telling modes and techniques that never existed in prefantasy (and indeed, barely could have done so, since the novel is itself a relatively recent invention)</li> </ul>And rather than trying to unload all the burden of proof on me to explain how all the characters I listed are unlike prefantastic characters, how about you provide some specifics on why you think they're not.  That's where you're just saying "Nuh-uh" and offering absolutely no evidence or support for your claim.  Well, that and your claim that a modern point of view is irrelevent.  You seem to think that merely you claiming that it is so is sufficient.All of those specific points have been brought up and rather studiously ignored by you.  So if you're going to try and claim that you're "winning" on a technicallity here, you're off base.  You haven't yet even attempted to make even a cursory argument yet.</blockquote>

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