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Message: <blockquote data-quote="MrMyth" data-source="post: 4488921" data-attributes="member: 61155">Honestly, I think it sounds like the blame falls on weak rolls, poor tactics, bad judgement... and the GM.  Putting forward an intentionally hard fight - and then asking, when the party is defeated by it, if this proves your players are idiots - is the sign something is being done wrong... and I don't think the players are the ones to blame.  Let's be clear - assuming these are 8 standard MM skeletons and 2 standard MM Wraiths, this is over a level 6 encounter for a 6 player party - and over a level 7 encounter for 5 players.  Can an encounter that difficult be defeated? Yes, by players moving as a well-oiled machine, using great tactics and with well-designed characters they know in and out. An average party might defeat such an encounter with luck, though it might cost a few players.  But clearly both you and the players are still unfamiliar with some of the powers (like Turn Undead, which if used correctly, could have been pivotal in winning the fight.) Clearly they are not yet used to the characters they are playing, nor have they completely mastered working together smoothly and efficiently.  There isn't anything wrong with this. Especially since, being thrown into such brutal encounters, they are going to have trouble getting the chance to do so.  What I find especially ironic is that you criticize them for not going into a possible escape route, simply because they are afraid they might encounter more enemies and become even more overwhelmed. I mean, <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showpost.php?postid=4456083" target="_blank">why would they possible expect that</a>?  Oh yes - because of the previous situation, when the group ran into an extremely difficult fight, tried to escape, only ran into more monsters, and this ended up being their death sentence.  Now, I don't know if this is the same group - it sounds like you were a player in the earlier scenario and the DM here. But it clearly shows that sometimes, running away can be dangerous. In the previous example, the party got in trouble even though apparently retreating into an already explored area. In this case, running blindly into haunted buildings would strike me as just asking for more monsters to join the fight! It is within your rights to throw very difficult fights at the party, especially if you want it to be an epic battle to remember. But you really don't get to assign the blame on the players when they don't end up being up to the task.  Personally, I'd advise sticking to much more reasonable encounters - at the very least, try to follow the guidelines in the DMG. Maybe start cranking up the challenge once the players start to master their characters, once they prove themselves ready for some truly difficult fights.  But throwing the hardest recommended challenge at an inexperienced group of 2nd level characters? And not scaling it down when the party size unexpectedly drops?  Complaining when the party has a tough time retreating from the battle (despite fighting enemies who get specific bonuses on Opportunity Attacks?) When fighting enemies several levels above them, who take half damage, weaken enemies, have regeneration, and replicate themselves as the fight starts to go in their favor?  Seriously. This is an extremely tough fight. And while I don't blame you for running it - sometimes there is merit in a truly challenging fight - I think it was a poor move as a DM to throw something like this againt the group. And I think it was downright atrocious to call your group idiots for responding the way they did.  Designing an overwhelmingly tough fight doesn't make you a bad DM. Running a tough fight doesn't make you a bad DM. Calling your players idiots for not being able to overcome your absurdly difficult fight, and hesitating to use tactics that could easily have backfired on them?  That's what makes you a bad DM. Making mistakes is fine, but refusing to learn from them - and even blaming others for them - is a sure sign that things are only likely to get worse, not better.  I don't think you were intentionally out to screw your players over, but I recommend taking a long hard look at how you run the game before putting together an encounter like this in the future.</blockquote>

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