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Message: <blockquote data-quote="MrMyth" data-source="post: 4490490" data-attributes="member: 61155">Hey, I'm just responding to the information you've provided. The reason I criticize is that you didn't post this asking if you did something wrong, or how the situation could have been improved - you posted this looking for confirmation that your players were at fault for having such a difficult time. For going 'brain-dead', being 'idiot players', etc. You wanted it to be an 'exciting running battle'... and started by surrounding the PCs with an incredibly hard fight, with the only escape route through an unexplored area.  That's a bad encounter design as a DM, and blaming the players afterwards is in poor taste. Even if you aren't saying it to their face, referring to them repeatedly as 'idiots' definitely seems uncalled for.  I can think of any number of reasons why there could be more monsters in the houses - especially with undead, who aren't always going to be drawn instantly to nearby battles. (Unlike more rational, humanoid enemies.)  Look, I'm not sure what response you are looking for here. You ask the questions: "Am I right? My players are idiots, right?" If you are just looking for a straight answer, then mine is: No, not at all. Players aren't incompetent simply because they don't follow a specific set of tactics you were expecting of them.  Wanting a hard fight is fine - but this went a bit farther, especially when it is clear that people aren't yet familiar enough with their characters to run them at full effectiveness. Again, note the fact you mishandled Turn Undead, which if run properly could have completely changed the the course of the battle. Note the fact you continue to insist this this is a completely appropriate battle, and that the rules support you on this. Of course they do - you can throw the party up against whatever you wish. But the rules certainly don't recommend you do so - and an encounter 5 levels above the PCs, with the odds already stacked against them, certainly seems like the type of thing you should be careful about. The PCs were literally outnumbered 2 to 1, with every single enemy higher level than them - that should really tell you that something is wrong with the encounter design.  If you are looking for some actual thoughts on the combat and what could have been changed about it, then here is how I would have done this encounter:  1 Wraith, 3 Skeletons, 4 Decrepit Skeletons. During the first round, another 4 Decrepit Skeletons unearth themselves out of the ground or creep out of the well or the buildings, then 3 on the next three rounds after that, and finally 2 each round until some condition is met. (Such as killing the Wraith or consecrating the area or somesuch.)  Make the condition obvious - the wraith glows with unholy power that energizes the other undead. No game effect, other than the continual onslaught of decrepit skeletons, but it makes him clearly seem like the boss of the encounter - a figure they will fill an accomplishment in defeating.  The encounter begins with them outnumbered and consists of undead constantly rising to battle them - that gives the feel of a truly dangerous, epic encounter. It gives them a sense of a time limit they need to win before they become overwhelmed. But at the same time, it is paced enough that they aren't simply outclassed from the start - the combat starts out at only 2 levels higher than them, and while it grows from there, the minions are arriving at a slow enough pace they don't make the difficulty outrageous.  Over the course of the battle, they'll end up fighting an encounter 3-4 levels above them - a hard, difficult battle, but one they can not only win, but actually see the progress they are making.  It isn't a perfect fight, but it should be one that keeps them on their toes. One that requires some tactical decisions - they need to keep the number of skeletons down so they don't get overwhelmed, but also need to focus on working towards their goal of killing the wraith (who is, of course, protected by the more dangerous skeletons.) Retreating into the buildings helps reduce how many enemies can get at them, but also cuts off their ability to focus fire.  Your goal seems to have been to have a memorable encounter, and feeling the only way to make it so was to crank up the difficulty. I think there are better ways to have gone about it. And when it backfired - when the fight was too much for the PCs - I don't think they should be held at fault for not being able to handle what was an inappropriate challenge. Especially not for the supposed failing of not following some hints to circle through a build into a better situation - I doubt that would have really made much difference. The actions lost doing so might even have hurt them, in the long run.  Could they have used better tactics? Certainly. Do they still need to spend some time learning their characters and getting used to what they can do? Apparently so. But this doesn't mean they are hopeless as players, and doesn't mean you can't find ways to challenge them in exciting and memorable encounters.  And until they become tactical geniuses who operate like a high-magic assault force, I recommend keeping the encounters to more appropriate levels - there are definitely reasonable fights you can present them with that will be tough, but allow them the chance to show their mettle and feel like victory is a real accomplishment.</blockquote>

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