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Former 4E doubter , I have high hopes now
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<blockquote data-quote="BryonD" data-source="post: 4012162" data-attributes="member: 957"><p>You have not accurately described the alternative side when you frame it as an SCA-like exercise in simulating medieval life/combat. People who want that probably are playing something like GURPS or even Harn rather than D&D anyway.</p><p></p><p>As someone who sees himself as very much a simulationist at times, I don't at all try simulate medieval life. I try to simulate a self consistent and deeply Immersive D&D world that just happens to be loosely based on a wide variety of highly romanticized versions of historic Earth cultures. But the key is in the self consistent and immersive. </p><p></p><p>When the world starts building itself around the character, then it immediately stops being "real". The character becomes just a token and the rules are rubbing it in my face. </p><p></p><p>After all, you can sit around a table with friends and go on epic adventures together, killing monsters and taking their stuff while playing Descent. I'm not saying that this would be adequate for you or that 4E is that simple. But it meets the standard you established. And it shows that there are rather extreme shades of gray available for how deep the game can be. </p><p></p><p>I enjoy Descent. But I never feel like I am character. I'm just playing a game. </p><p></p><p>When I read a good book I never feel like I can control the world. I'm stuck as a passive observer. (As a player my character is stunned from page 1 to The End) But I'm immersed in the action and enjoying every second of it. That is current D&D for me - at its very worst. When I can't act as a player, I'm still just as immersed. </p><p></p><p>For me, this type of gamist change will move D&D sharply through the grays toward Descent. I don't want that. The gain in action will be negligible because the fun is not shackled to the actions. But the loss in the book-like involvement will be significant. Because the fun is defined by the immersion. </p><p></p><p>None of that has anything to do with accurate simulation of medieval anything.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="BryonD, post: 4012162, member: 957"] You have not accurately described the alternative side when you frame it as an SCA-like exercise in simulating medieval life/combat. People who want that probably are playing something like GURPS or even Harn rather than D&D anyway. As someone who sees himself as very much a simulationist at times, I don't at all try simulate medieval life. I try to simulate a self consistent and deeply Immersive D&D world that just happens to be loosely based on a wide variety of highly romanticized versions of historic Earth cultures. But the key is in the self consistent and immersive. When the world starts building itself around the character, then it immediately stops being "real". The character becomes just a token and the rules are rubbing it in my face. After all, you can sit around a table with friends and go on epic adventures together, killing monsters and taking their stuff while playing Descent. I'm not saying that this would be adequate for you or that 4E is that simple. But it meets the standard you established. And it shows that there are rather extreme shades of gray available for how deep the game can be. I enjoy Descent. But I never feel like I am character. I'm just playing a game. When I read a good book I never feel like I can control the world. I'm stuck as a passive observer. (As a player my character is stunned from page 1 to The End) But I'm immersed in the action and enjoying every second of it. That is current D&D for me - at its very worst. When I can't act as a player, I'm still just as immersed. For me, this type of gamist change will move D&D sharply through the grays toward Descent. I don't want that. The gain in action will be negligible because the fun is not shackled to the actions. But the loss in the book-like involvement will be significant. Because the fun is defined by the immersion. None of that has anything to do with accurate simulation of medieval anything. [/QUOTE]
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