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<blockquote data-quote="Don Durito" data-source="post: 7826909" data-attributes="member: 6687260"><p>Yes but it's awkward. Say you're playing a Ranger with a Wis 16 and a Charisma of 8. The Bard has been blathering to the king for awhile away for awhile and while he's been talking you notice that one of the courtiers is looking very nervous and uncomfortable about something.</p><p></p><p>At this point the approach you'd expect from watching media is that while the Bard continues to be the centre of attention the Ranger quietly steps aside and has a quiet word to the courtier - tries to persuade him to open up (after all your character noticed something potentially important - this ought to be your time to step into the spotlight).</p><p></p><p>However if you have to make a Persuasion roll - then you've probably wasted the opportunity - better to just tell the bard so he can go and talk - or maybe you have another character with a decent Charisma.</p><p></p><p>It's not very satsifying - Insight is half a skill. If the skill was "Empathy" you'd have the other half.</p><p></p><p>All the active rolls come under Charisma - it's like if all attack rolls (including for spells) came under Strength and the only way to hit people ever was by rolling Strength. If you didn't have Strength you'd be spending all of combat doing help actions and the like. (...because, to continue the analogy, if you tried to attack and missed you may not just waste your action but actively make the situation worse.)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If I was designing a full social combat system for D&D, I'd probably use Int and Wis for approaches (attacks) and Charisma to determine the extent of the influence (social damage).</p><p></p><p>But I suspect such a system would get pushback and probably is more than would be needed for most D&D games. (The Shadow of a Demon Lord Forbidden Rules supplement actually has such a system - but because the game lacks a Charisma stat it loses out a bit in this particular situation where such a stat would actually lend nuance.) . Shadow of a Demon Lord's Boons and Banes systems allow the NPCs attitude to the PC to influence the roll to persuade someone in a way that is difficult to achieve in 5E - Advantage/Disadvantage being too much of a blunt instrument.</p><p></p><p>Failing that - If I was keeping skills (which I increasingly think don't really fit very well with 5E's proficiency system - but thinking about skills help to think about functions) I'd rework them somewhat so there was a better spread.</p><p></p><p>eg</p><p><strong>Int</strong></p><p>Deception</p><p>Reason (maybe not a whole skill but an approach at least)</p><p><strong>Wis</strong></p><p>Empathy</p><p><strong>Cha</strong></p><p>Build Rapport/Charm</p><p>Possibly Fast Talk</p><p></p><p>I think looking at the above - I'd put more focus on how the PC was trying to do the action then the end goal.</p><p></p><p>I think there's a bit of a gap there - but I think that's a good thing - I think any social system in a RPG starts to run into trouble when it is able to function completely independently of what the PC is actually saying.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Don Durito, post: 7826909, member: 6687260"] Yes but it's awkward. Say you're playing a Ranger with a Wis 16 and a Charisma of 8. The Bard has been blathering to the king for awhile away for awhile and while he's been talking you notice that one of the courtiers is looking very nervous and uncomfortable about something. At this point the approach you'd expect from watching media is that while the Bard continues to be the centre of attention the Ranger quietly steps aside and has a quiet word to the courtier - tries to persuade him to open up (after all your character noticed something potentially important - this ought to be your time to step into the spotlight). However if you have to make a Persuasion roll - then you've probably wasted the opportunity - better to just tell the bard so he can go and talk - or maybe you have another character with a decent Charisma. It's not very satsifying - Insight is half a skill. If the skill was "Empathy" you'd have the other half. All the active rolls come under Charisma - it's like if all attack rolls (including for spells) came under Strength and the only way to hit people ever was by rolling Strength. If you didn't have Strength you'd be spending all of combat doing help actions and the like. (...because, to continue the analogy, if you tried to attack and missed you may not just waste your action but actively make the situation worse.) If I was designing a full social combat system for D&D, I'd probably use Int and Wis for approaches (attacks) and Charisma to determine the extent of the influence (social damage). But I suspect such a system would get pushback and probably is more than would be needed for most D&D games. (The Shadow of a Demon Lord Forbidden Rules supplement actually has such a system - but because the game lacks a Charisma stat it loses out a bit in this particular situation where such a stat would actually lend nuance.) . Shadow of a Demon Lord's Boons and Banes systems allow the NPCs attitude to the PC to influence the roll to persuade someone in a way that is difficult to achieve in 5E - Advantage/Disadvantage being too much of a blunt instrument. Failing that - If I was keeping skills (which I increasingly think don't really fit very well with 5E's proficiency system - but thinking about skills help to think about functions) I'd rework them somewhat so there was a better spread. eg [B]Int[/B] Deception Reason (maybe not a whole skill but an approach at least) [B]Wis[/B] Empathy [B]Cha[/B] Build Rapport/Charm Possibly Fast Talk I think looking at the above - I'd put more focus on how the PC was trying to do the action then the end goal. I think there's a bit of a gap there - but I think that's a good thing - I think any social system in a RPG starts to run into trouble when it is able to function completely independently of what the PC is actually saying. [/QUOTE]
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