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<blockquote data-quote="LowSpine" data-source="post: 4267172" data-attributes="member: 60239">I think what it is is you are comparing it to earlier versions. You could do something and now you can't so it feels like that thing was left out.Others have felt 4E has no feeling of depth - unfortunately that is a con of streamlining and simplification.I think depth/complexity/options will come later in splat books, and some will hate this fact, but hopefully the splat books will have allot more in them that you will actually want rather than 10% worthwhile 3E books.It looks a solid system but has issues with clarifications and ramifications - Intimidate cha vs will - Force to surrender, as an example. It is an overpowered suggestion that must be ruled by a DM, but any decent DM will say no so it seems a bit pointless including that info. (My own suggestion would be target will+hp DC, the lower the hp the more likely to give up, but that would need playtesting and adjusting.)Some of these things should be sorted - hopefully in reprintings - but it is too late for those who already have the books.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="LowSpine, post: 4267172, member: 60239"] I think what it is is you are comparing it to earlier versions. You could do something and now you can't so it feels like that thing was left out. Others have felt 4E has no feeling of depth - unfortunately that is a con of streamlining and simplification. I think depth/complexity/options will come later in splat books, and some will hate this fact, but hopefully the splat books will have allot more in them that you will actually want rather than 10% worthwhile 3E books. It looks a solid system but has issues with clarifications and ramifications - Intimidate cha vs will - Force to surrender, as an example. It is an overpowered suggestion that must be ruled by a DM, but any decent DM will say no so it seems a bit pointless including that info. (My own suggestion would be target will+hp DC, the lower the hp the more likely to give up, but that would need playtesting and adjusting.) Some of these things should be sorted - hopefully in reprintings - but it is too late for those who already have the books. [/QUOTE]

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