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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6142827" data-attributes="member: 42582">Doesn't this depend heavily on the group's expectations? For instance, you said in your OP that once a player "give<s> up on that character that they become and NPC and I can do what I want with them." I imagine some groups would agree with this, but others would reject it, taking the view that the player has ownership over the PC's existence in the fiction whether or not they want to keep playing that PC.</s><s></s><s>But in your scenario, in any even, it is another player who has done this, not the GM (unless I misunderstood who did what). There are abilities in 4e that permit this - for instance, the 22nd paladin utility "Gift of Life", as written, doesn't have a "PC consent" clause to it. Again, this strikes me as a "social contract" issue: if the player doesn't want his/her PC resurrected, why is the other player nevertheless doing so?</s><s></s><s>I'm personally not the biggest fan of this sort of "plot device" - what exactly is it meant to add to the play of the game?</s><s></s><s>I don't see it as an issue of the the GM being "allowed" or not - who is granting/withholding permission here? - but as what makes for a good play experience.</s><s></s><s>Again, this depends on what the overall point of the game is. An all-powerful opponent, for instance, doesn't make for a very well-framed situation - it looks like a railroad (or something similar) to me, if the PCs can't succeed except via GM fiat. But obviously the gods, in the 4e world at least, are strong enough to snuff out the life of paragon heroes, given that - in most god statblocks - you have to be 20th or higher level to hurt them.</s><s></s><s>For instance, contrary to what your fellow player said, there is no implication in the rules system that Bahamut's abilities are confined to the published statblock plus published rituals. Apart from anything else, the DMG mentions his ability to be in two places at once, which is not mentioned in the statblock nor in the ritual rules.</s><s></s><s>It sounds to me like your GM mishandled the situation pretty badly, but your fellow players seem to have acted in ways that compounded rather than mitigated the damage.</s></blockquote>

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