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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 6143973" data-attributes="member: 48965">Unconscious doesn't equal dead. You do not need divine intervention to ressurect you when you are unconscious and you may in fact get up on your own when you are unconscious by rolling a 20 on a death save, so I don't see how having 0hp's and being dead in the game (especially with 4e's many chances to spring back into the game through luck and/or healing) are in any way the same thing. Being dead in the sense that the OP was speaking about in the game (which required a deus ex machina for the pc's to get back into the game) was not the same as unconscious.So we agree that it is a possibility that 13th level characters can survive an attack that does 150 hit points, that was all I was saying.Of course it does, but given enough previous damage and no healing even an attack doing 1 point of damage can exceed the negative bloodied threshold and kill a PC... Not sure what the point of this statement was since it's self-evident. Ok, so 112 hit points...so how does this in any way change the fact that the statement you made below is still false?,You already admitted a run-of-the-mill defender can easily exceed this, and I've given an example of a 10th level character who exceeded it... so the above is provably false.The OP also states this is a guess on his part... so there's no way to really know if the DM believed this or not...I mean stepping out of the math constraints of encounter design vs. level that 4e suggests... something many advocates of 4e say can and should be done by the DM if he wants to since they are just guidelines and not rules. Of course I find it slightly ironic that we have a player (Jim) telling the DM that he is wrong for going outside of those boundaries, especially since I had a conversation with you and I believe Hussar about this very thing and how I've noticed that 4e seems to instill that sense of entitlement (even in traditionally DM controlled areas) in some players... of course I was told that in reality it just didn't happen...<img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/erm.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":erm:" title="Erm    :erm:" data-shortname=":erm:" /> As far as "getting the best out of the game"... I would say that takes place when the group is having fun, period. Since EVERYONE except Jim was having fun in the campaign (and the OP has already given us insight into the type of problems Jim has as a player in every game.) and even in this last encounter there was only one other player who didn't like the way it went... I don't know if the DM wasn't getting the "best out of the game" for his group. I certainly don't think 4e's advice will always create the best D&D game for every group or even the best 4e game for every group or am I missing your point here? YMMV of course.</blockquote>

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