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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mercurius" data-source="post: 6066092" data-attributes="member: 59082">I hear ya, but I think you went a bit too literal or concrete with my loose/tight analogy. First of all, it is in relation to the editions on either side; 1E was looser than 2E, which was tighter than 3E, which was looser than 4E. Or at least that's how I see it based upon the general quality I'm looking at.Let me put it another way. First of all, let me put it out there that I haven't played 2E in 16 or 17 years, and 1E in 25 years or more - so my memory is a bit fuzzy. But a lot of the stuff you mention about 1E is stuff that a lot of folks didn't use. Everyone that I played with in the early to mid-80s saw almost everything as optional. Encumbrance? Yeah, right. We played the core game, pick and choose a bunch of other stuff and then just made everything else up.With 2E, a lot of the messiness and Gygaxian inconsistencies and idiosyncrasies were cleaned up (which is why 2E wasn't as charming), and it made playing the secondary rules a lot easier. 3E was comparatively loose because its core mechanic made it easier to pick and choose again, to add and subtract. But 4E came in and had a denser secondary system woven around the core mechanic, namely the AEDU powers, which made it very difficult to modify the rules without impacting something you didn't know you were impacting. Sort of like a game of pick-up sticks.Yes and no. What you describe is true, but the problem - and I think turn-off for many "traditionalists" - is that all of this occured in a more abstract context. Players could "impose their image" of their character in a more meaningful way than before, but the separation between player and character became wider because 4E game play, as a general rule, lends itself to a less immersive experience than previous editions. You may not agree with me, and I'm sure someone will say "I couldn't disagree with you more" because this is ENWorld, but that's been my experience and the experience of almost everyone I've played or talked with. But this goes back to 3E and has a lot to do with miniatures and battlemats, but the abstract "gamist" nature of AEDU powers accentuated this even more.</blockquote>

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