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<blockquote data-quote="Irda Ranger" data-source="post: 3944677" data-attributes="member: 1003">Two thoughts:1. The 3E rogue folded like a cheap suit.&nbsp; The 4E rogue is (in theory) a Martial character who is well balanced against the other classes in melee.2. A dancer-fencer cannot really be a defender.&nbsp; He can try, in a pinch, but if you need to &quot;hold the line&quot; you need heavy armor and shields.&nbsp; The &quot;dancer fencer&quot; relies on movement to avoid attacks; but if you're goal is defend a particular line in the sand or fellow PC, you can't move.Did anyone here play Arcana Unearthed/Evolved?&nbsp; One of my bigger gripes with that system was that the only decent archer was a &quot;Hawk Totem Warrior.&quot;&nbsp; Forget &quot;woodsman baggage&quot;, you had a whole religion/world-view attached to your skill with the bow.&nbsp; Ugh.But the 4E Ranger doesn't have to be that way.&nbsp; If he can have &quot;environment&quot; bonuses, you could have a good Urban Ranger or &quot;Dungeon Ranger&quot; who is stealthy, sniperish and aware of his surroundings in whatever environment he may find himself in.&nbsp; Roof tiles can be &quot;terrain&quot; too.As long as you don't have spells granted from a particular deity, or animal companions, I think the Ranger can fit a lot of different archetypes.&nbsp; Like <a href="http://www.imdb.com/gallery/ss/0159273/Ss/0159273/29-29a.jpg?path=gallery&amp;path_key=0159273" target="_blank">this guy</a> (which is only a good example if you've seen the movie). You're basically just hyper-aware, agile, terrain-savy and ranged-attack-preffered.&nbsp; Although that's constrained in some respects, well, D&amp;D is a class-based system.&nbsp; But it's a much bigger character space and &quot;Drizzt or Tanis?&quot;.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Irda Ranger, post: 3944677, member: 1003"] Two thoughts: 1. The 3E rogue folded like a cheap suit. The 4E rogue is (in theory) a Martial character who is well balanced against the other classes in melee. 2. A dancer-fencer cannot really be a defender. He can try, in a pinch, but if you need to "hold the line" you need heavy armor and shields. The "dancer fencer" relies on movement to avoid attacks; but if you're goal is defend a particular line in the sand or fellow PC, you can't move. Did anyone here play Arcana Unearthed/Evolved? One of my bigger gripes with that system was that the only decent archer was a "Hawk Totem Warrior." Forget "woodsman baggage", you had a whole religion/world-view attached to your skill with the bow. Ugh. But the 4E Ranger doesn't have to be that way. If he can have "environment" bonuses, you could have a good Urban Ranger or "Dungeon Ranger" who is stealthy, sniperish and aware of his surroundings in whatever environment he may find himself in. Roof tiles can be "terrain" too. As long as you don't have spells granted from a particular deity, or animal companions, I think the Ranger can fit a lot of different archetypes. Like [URL=http://www.imdb.com/gallery/ss/0159273/Ss/0159273/29-29a.jpg?path=gallery&path_key=0159273]this guy[/URL] (which is only a good example if you've seen the movie). You're basically just hyper-aware, agile, terrain-savy and ranged-attack-preffered. Although that's constrained in some respects, well, D&D is a class-based system. But it's a much bigger character space and "Drizzt or Tanis?". [/QUOTE]

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