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<blockquote data-quote="Nagol" data-source="post: 5285575" data-attributes="member: 23935">I generally agree though I think the chance a target failed its save in the older editions was higher than an unoptimised spellcaster in the newer editions.I'm away from my reference material so my numbers may be off a couple of points.Consider the ancient red dragon again.&nbsp; It had 11 hit dice and monster saving throws increased +1 / 2 hit dice IIRC.&nbsp; So it had a total +5 on its save compared to say an orc.&nbsp; Save versus spell was a tough category -- 19 for the orc so about 14 for the dragon.&nbsp;&nbsp; The orc fails 90% of the time versus any spell and the dragon fails 65% of the time.The red dragon of 3.5E has 40 HD and all favoured saves so its saving throw bonus is about 20-25 points higher than a base orc.&nbsp; Saving throw DC are based on spell level and attribute modifiers.&nbsp; The orc against a 1st level spell cast by a beginning character will face a DC around 15 and probably gets a +1 or better bonus on the save in addition and fails 65% of the time.&nbsp; The dragon is facing a 9th level spell cast by a high level character with about a +12ish attribute modifier for a DC of 31.&nbsp; The dragon needs to roll between a 6-10 to save (assuming it has no other bonuses) and fails about 25-50% of the time.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Nagol, post: 5285575, member: 23935"] I generally agree though I think the chance a target failed its save in the older editions was higher than an unoptimised spellcaster in the newer editions. I'm away from my reference material so my numbers may be off a couple of points. Consider the ancient red dragon again. It had 11 hit dice and monster saving throws increased +1 / 2 hit dice IIRC. So it had a total +5 on its save compared to say an orc. Save versus spell was a tough category -- 19 for the orc so about 14 for the dragon. The orc fails 90% of the time versus any spell and the dragon fails 65% of the time. The red dragon of 3.5E has 40 HD and all favoured saves so its saving throw bonus is about 20-25 points higher than a base orc. Saving throw DC are based on spell level and attribute modifiers. The orc against a 1st level spell cast by a beginning character will face a DC around 15 and probably gets a +1 or better bonus on the save in addition and fails 65% of the time. The dragon is facing a 9th level spell cast by a high level character with about a +12ish attribute modifier for a DC of 31. The dragon needs to roll between a 6-10 to save (assuming it has no other bonuses) and fails about 25-50% of the time. [/QUOTE]

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