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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Scion" data-source="post: 2739962" data-attributes="member: 5777">I am not sure what the 'group proficiency' is so I will ignore it for now.I also do not know the all of the weapons abilities are, but I'll make a few assumptions <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />First off, it sounds like an exotic weapon and so would take a feat.On a successful hit you get to make a free trip attempt, very similar to improved trip, with a DC of 10 + damage dealt.If the trip attempt is unsuccessful it sounds like the person that was hit can try to countertrip (although your wording sounds like something different, so let me know if I am incorrect here) and if the countertrip is successful the weilder of the weapon can drop it to avoid this effect.A normal trip attempt works off of opposing strength checks + special modifiers.d20+str modifier+size modifier.I assume that the weapon is a one handed throwing weapon that also works as a melee weapon.So, on a successful hit you put up a DC of 10+damage instead of d20+8(str)+4(size).So long as the average damage of the weapon is greater than 4 then the ritiik is better.If the weapon has no other special abilities and has a short throwing range and its damage is lower than normal for a weapon of its normal type and it takes a feat to use I think one could make an arguement for it being all right.Changing the rules for the trip kindof suck, especially with the various ways to increase damage which are easy whereas there are fewer ways to increase the trip modifier. Likely it would be more appropriate to make it 5+damage dealt or simply damage dealt or to just leave the mechanic alone.Did I miss anything?Note also that tripping someone while they are getting up doesnt prevent them from getting up as far as I can tell from the rules, so that should help some, although it wont prevent the (likely) pretty hefty damage associated with it.Being resistant to spells is just adding to the brutality..lolWould these guys have been about the same with a normal reach weapon that can trip and the 'hold the line' feat instead of the feat used to get this exotic weapon?</blockquote>

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