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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Stormrunner" data-source="post: 2748077" data-attributes="member: 13471">Well, let's take a look at some stats then.Base ogre has a STR of 21, spellwarped template adds +4 for a total of 25.  ForceUser seems to have rounded this up to 26 - a valid tweak, but it does give the ogres a +1 to hit compared to the "standard vanilla" ogre.  With the spellwarped template, the ogres are CR 5 apiece instead of CR 3, so three of them should be EL 8 - nominally about average for a party of 5 7th-level PCs.  The lack of damage-from-a-distance is what really hurt the party - closing to melee range is usually a Bad Idea against creatures of the Giant type.  The ritiik is a two-handed melee weapon, so the ogres get extra STR bonus to damage.  A Medium ritiik does 1d8, so a Large one would do 2d6, plus 1.5x STR (1.5x13=19), for an average of 26 damage per hit.  That's a DC 36 Reflex save to avoid being tripped: the PC would need a Reflex save bonus of +17 or better, extremely difficult at 7th level, to save on anything other than a nat20.   It also means it would only take 3-4 hits to down the average 7th-level fighter.For starters, I'll assume the ogres swapped their standard Weapon Focus feat for Exotic Weapon:Ritiik but didn't swap Toughness for Improved Trip (hey, they're ogres: "Me tough.  Tough good."  OTOH, the spellwarped template does increase their INT as well... but if they normally use the weapons vs seals and walruses, which aren't really trippable, even smart ogres might not bother.)Ogre's STR: 26  DEX: 10  CON:19  HP: 4d8+19 (37 hp)Ogre's AC: 10+5(natural)+3(hide armor)-1(size)=17, touch 10Ogre's attack: +3 BAB, +8 STR, -1 size = +10Ogre's Trip bonus: +8 STR, +4 size = +12We'll take the NPC Fighter from the DMG and improve his equipment to PC levels (19,000 gp instead of 7,200).  +2 armor, +2 shield, and +2 weapon adds up to 16,000.  We'll add a ring of protection +1 (2,000 gp), and assume the remaining 1,000 is miscellaneous equipment.Fighter's STR: 16  DEX: 13  CON: 14  HP: 10+6d10+14 (57 hp)Fighter's AC: 10+10(+2 full plate)+4(+2 heavy shield)+1(DEX)+1(ring) = 26touch AC = 10+1(DEX)+1(ring)= 12Fighter's attack: +7/+2 BAB, +3 STR, +2 weapon = +12/+7Fighter's Trip bonus: +3 STRNote that in a straight-up slugfest, the ogres have only 2/3 as many HP, an AC significantly lower, and are outnumbered 2 to 1.  The party can be forgiven for expecting them to be "chumps".On with the show:Using the Ritiik:  the ogre makes a standard attack, if he hits the target has to make a Reflex save,  if the save fails the ogre can make a free Trip attempt.  If that succeeds he can make an AoO when the target tries to stand.  I'm assuming here that the ogre's AoO gets the +4 for a prone target but cannot re-trip.  I'm also assuming that natural rolls of 1 or 20 on the Trip rolls do NOT auto-fail or -succeed respectively: if they do, the ogre's chances actually go down (if the base chance is better than 50%, the penalty for the auto-fails outweighs the benefit of the auto-successes).Chance the ogre's attack hits: +10 attack vs AC 26 needs a 16 or better, = 25% Chance fighter fails his Reflex save: 95% (only makes it on a nat20)Ogre's chance to Trip: 86%(The math gets hairy, so I used the brute force method.  I made an Excel spreadsheet with a 20x20 grid, numbered 1 through 20 across the top (the ogre's roll) and down the side (the fighter's roll).  I then filled each cell in the grid with a formula: IF(OR(FRoll+Fbonus<Oroll+Obonus, AND(Froll=Oroll,Fbonus<Obonus)),1,0)that is to say, IF the Fighter's d20 roll + his Trip bonus is less than the Ogre's roll + Trip bonus, OR the two results are equal but the Ogre has a bigger bonus, then put a 1 in the cell, otherwise put a 0.  Adding up the number of 1's in the grid and dividing by 400 (the total # of 1's and 0's in the grid) gives the percent chance the ogre succeeds on the trip.  This formula doesn't account for the rare case when both the roll results AND the bonuses of both contestants are equal (it gets recursive), but that won't happen in this scenario.  Note that even with the massive disparity in Trip bonuses, the fighter still has a 14% chance (about 1 in 7) of resisting the Trip.Chance the ogre's AoO hits: 45% (the base attack chance, +20% for a prone target)Total chance to successfully trip, per attack: 25% * 95% * 86% = 0.20425, or a hair better than 20%.  *45% = 9.19125% chance of scoring an extra hit from the AoO.  Average damage output per round = chance of initial hit + chance of AoO = 34%If the fighter was using a greatsword, no shield but that frees up enough gp to buy Gauntlets of Ogre Power for a +2 to STR.  Fighter's AC becomes 22, Trip bonus becomes +4.The ogre's chance to trip then becomes 45% * 95% * 84% = 0.3591 (36%), chance of successful AoO becomes 23.3415%, average damage output = 68%Now, let's look at the case of the ogre who takes Improved Trip instead of Exotic Weapon, and uses a non-exotic tripping weapon (probably a flail).  This shortens his reach to 10', but gives him a +4 on Trip attempts.Using the flail: The ogre makes a touch attack.  If this is successful he makes a Trip attempt.  If the Trip is successful he can make a free attack against his now-prone opponent, and may get an AoO when the opponent stands, as above.Chance touch attack hits: +10 attack vs AC 12 = 2 or better, 95% chance.Chance of trip succeeding: 95% Chance follow-up strike hits: +14 vs AC 26, 12 or better, 45%Chance AoO hits: trip success * same chance to hit as follow-upTotal chance to trip, per attack: 95% * 95% = .9025 (90%).  Chance of successful AoO = .9025 * 45% = .406125, about 40%Damage output: trip chance * follow-up chance, + AoO chance: 90.25% * 45%, + 40% = .81225, approx 81%.Versus the gauntlets-and-greatsword fighter, total chance to trip is 95% * 93% = .8835 (88%), follow-up succeeds at 65%, damage output is .8835 * 65% + .574 = 1.149Compare this to just taking Weapon Focus and hacking away: damage output = chance to hit = 0.30 (0.50 vs the greatsword fighter).Conclusion:Using the ritiik is better than Weapon Focus: damage output is slightly higher and there's a decent chance of preventing the foe from closing.  However, the ritiik is significantly WORSE than going the Improved Trip route, in all aspects other than reach.  And, at least in this case, ImTrip isn't "halving his damage output", it's more than doubling it.</blockquote>

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