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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Not a Decepticon" data-source="post: 9809340" data-attributes="member: 7020527">Which it always is So in other words, if you want to have Patron by a recussing character that Warlock can interact with, you effectively delete their 10th level feature and turn it into a dead level. Also, you literally are not allowed to roleplay the patron before warlock reaches level 3 because you do not know which sublass the player will take and therefore any hint of the patron leaning one way or another inherently imposes on player's agency.Then I am sorry they were hurt by abusive DMs who made them adopt adversarial mindset where DM is up to screw them. I am sorry you play at table with such glaring problems.Except of course of the fact I am not allowed to use the patron at all before level 3 and not allowed to have them be an actual character you can talk to but have to use easily-ignorable messengers, othertwise level 10 Warlock is a dead level. Seems like they very succesfully rendered the patron into a non-entity and turned Warlock into purely mechanical "big number go up" for optimizers.And speaking as an optimizer, I HATE ITAll of those relationships are what you describe as "imposing on player agency" just in different ways. The exception is "becoming your own patron" which sounds to me like a) you were just playing sorcerer with Warlock mechanics, reducing class to "big number go up" b)you removed the patron from the class. To remove any possibility of patron affecting player agency is to remove the patron entierly. You end with what Cleric and Paladin now are, where they got stripped from roleplay opportunnities for the sake of power gaming and are much worse because of it. Paladin at least still has an oath and I like the idea BG3 implied where all Paladins, even Oathbreakers, fall under Torm and he disguises himself as an Oathbreaker to take your powers away and talk with you whenever you should seek redemption or embrace new path.the adversarial "DM is out to get me" mindset that is shown in pushback to an idea your character's god or patron may want to have excectations or wants of the character. You yourself show it too with the assumption that is patron wants something it is inherently a "trying to screw them over with no way to stop them".Rick Sanchez voice: that just sounds like a god with extra steps.</blockquote>

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