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<blockquote data-quote="Desdichado" data-source="post: 6029597" data-attributes="member: 2205">Interpreted in that light, the pro and con sides of this discussion are talking completely past each other, and not to each other at all.&nbsp; I interpret it that we're talking about the merits and problems of the concept more in general, since... well, since otherwise, all we're doing is telling gaming stories to each other.I don't feel personally accused of anything.&nbsp; At the same time, creating an exaggerated position to illustrate the supposed problems in a practice isn't very convincing.&nbsp; Neither is a false causality, an &quot;if X then Y must happen&quot;, nor a false motivation, &quot;if X happens it must be because of Y.&quot;&nbsp; I couldn't care less if you or JustinAlexander, or anyone else, thought I was the most infamous railroad tycoon since Cornelius Vanderbilt, that doesn't change the fact that associating fudging and the GM's Precious Plot syndrome is not an association that stands up under any serious scrutiny.I also think it's worthwhile in a discussion about the merits (or not) of fudging that it's worth pointing out that bad examples of fudging gone wrong is more a condemnation of doing something badly than it is of doing it at all in the first place.&nbsp; I can come up with all kinds of personal examples from my own gaming &quot;career,&quot; or the stories I've heard from my group, of things that went badly.&nbsp; Often, so badly that they proved to be campaign enders, and we had to start over with something else just to get away from the egregious mistake.&nbsp; But that isn't a condemnation of the practice, generally, but of doing it badly.Because otherwise, my short-lived Dark•Matter game where the PCs got a hold of an alien superlaser and used it to draw a gigantic image of a hand giving the earth the finger on the surface of the moon could be seen as a condemnation of the idea of a sandbox-style game.&nbsp; Fer instance.Of course, you could simply strongly prefer a game where fudging is not tolerated.&nbsp; I can hardly gainsay that, because that's your preference.&nbsp; But when you start to say things like fudging is what happens when the GM wants to protect his plot, then I'll have to say that no it isn't.&nbsp; Or at least, no it isn't necessarily.&nbsp; There could be all kinds of reasons to fudge.&nbsp; In my experience my GMs don't really have a plot, regardless of propensity or not to fudge anyway.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Desdichado, post: 6029597, member: 2205"] Interpreted in that light, the pro and con sides of this discussion are talking completely past each other, and not to each other at all. I interpret it that we're talking about the merits and problems of the concept more in general, since... well, since otherwise, all we're doing is telling gaming stories to each other. I don't feel personally accused of anything. At the same time, creating an exaggerated position to illustrate the supposed problems in a practice isn't very convincing. Neither is a false causality, an "if X then Y must happen", nor a false motivation, "if X happens it must be because of Y." I couldn't care less if you or JustinAlexander, or anyone else, thought I was the most infamous railroad tycoon since Cornelius Vanderbilt, that doesn't change the fact that associating fudging and the GM's Precious Plot syndrome is not an association that stands up under any serious scrutiny. I also think it's worthwhile in a discussion about the merits (or not) of fudging that it's worth pointing out that bad examples of fudging gone wrong is more a condemnation of doing something [I]badly[/I] than it is of doing it at all in the first place. I can come up with all kinds of personal examples from my own gaming "career," or the stories I've heard from my group, of things that went badly. Often, so badly that they proved to be campaign enders, and we had to start over with something else just to get away from the egregious mistake. But that isn't a condemnation of the practice, generally, but of doing it [I]badly.[/I] Because otherwise, my short-lived Dark•Matter game where the PCs got a hold of an alien superlaser and used it to draw a gigantic image of a hand giving the earth the finger on the surface of the moon could be seen as a condemnation of the idea of a sandbox-style game. Fer instance. Of course, you could simply strongly prefer a game where fudging is not tolerated. I can hardly gainsay that, because that's your preference. But when you start to say things like fudging is what happens when the GM wants to protect his plot, then I'll have to say that no it isn't. Or at least, no it isn't [I]necessarily.[/I] There could be all kinds of reasons to fudge. In my experience my GMs don't really have a plot, regardless of propensity or not to fudge anyway. [/QUOTE]

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