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Message: <blockquote data-quote="FrankTrollman" data-source="post: 1162798" data-attributes="member: 14225">OK, let's take as our example a combat between a Brown Bear and 2 4th level Rogues. This is a much less controvertial example than a Dire Bear because it doesn't require us to answer the question of what - if anything - a bear gets out of having a high BAB.Both Rogues have strengths of 16 (perhaps they are benefitting from Bull's Strength, or maybe they are combat Rogues - I don't care), and have BABs of +3. Their grapple bonus is +6. The Brown Bear has a Strength of 27 and a BAB of +4 - it is also Large, and has a grapple bonus of +16.The rogues have 1 attack each at +7 with a +1 shortsword - which inflicts d6+4 damage unless they sneak attack - in which they will do 3d6+4. They each have armor classes of 17. The bear has an AC of 15 (14 when denied dexterity), and has 2 claws at +11 for d8+8 and 1 bite at +6 for 2d6+4. The Rogues have 24 hit points each - the bear has 51.We would sort of expect the bear to tear the rogues to pieces, as it is inflicting an average of 23 points of damage per round - and even flanking the Rogues are only handing out 21.75 damage per round and have less hit points together.But let's look at the result when the bear get's a hit in and attempts to grapple:1> The bear hits with its first claw. It now has a choice to grapple with just one paw or with its whole body:i) If the bear grapples with just one paw, roll an opposed grapple check (the bear suffers a -20 on this check). If the bear beats the rogue's d20 plus 6 with its own d20 minus four - the rogue is grappled and it is not.Assuming success, the bear now can use its remaining attacks on any other creature - its attacks against the targetted rogue are now over. The rogue now suffers a -4 penalty when attacking the bear, but the bear can only attack the held rogue once per round with a claw or attempt to pin with a new grapple check at -20 (again it has to beat a d20+6 with its own d20-4). The rogue can attempt to turn the grapple around on the bear when his round comes around instead of attacking - but does so against the bear's entire grapple bonus of +16.ii) If the bear grapples with its whole body, roll an opposed grapple check. If the bear beats the rogue's d20 plus six with its own d20 plus sixteen, the rogue is grappled.Assuming success, the bear is now grappled, as is the rogue. On subsequent rounds, both the Rogue and the bear can attack each other with one attack at -4 to-hit or attempt a grapple check to pin or inflict unarmed damage. The bear is also denied dexterity against the other rogue and cannot attack him.---Yeah. That's how it works. The bear wants to lose when it uses its improved grab.Now, the way it probably should work is just like combining manufactured weapon attacks with natural weapon attacks. That is, that you would get grapple checks based on your BAB which could be used to inflict unarmed damage or pin and use your natural weapons at penalties on top of that - which is how I assumed that it worked originally by reading the section on combining natural and manufactured weapons (keeping in mind that unarmed attacks/grapples are considered manufactured wepaons for these purposes).However, the improved grab/rake sections are pretty clear on this: creatures with natural weapon attack routines get hosed in grapples.-Frank</blockquote>

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