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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 1162875" data-attributes="member: 3146">I think you're absolutely wrong about the way it should work. Creatures with improved grab (try the Tendriculos or Remorhaz on for size) are nasty enough without doubling or tripling their attacks every time they grapple a PC. Your suggestion would essentially amount to writing front-line characters out of the game because they'd never survive more than two rounds against any creature with improved grab.Furthermore, you're wrong about the brown bear's tactical situation in your example. The bear doesn't lose much by using improved grab on the one rogue--even at the -20. In fact, if he succeeds with the grapple, he pretty much neutralizes both rogues (since the bear doesn't count as grappled and the other rogue now has nobody to flank with). If he hits the second rogue with his other claw and successfully grapples him (certainly not out of the question--even with a -20 on his grapple check), he only has to hold on to them for one round and then he can grapple both of them without the -20. There's no way that either of them will escape or survive.Granted, if the brown bear were up against four rogues, he would be in trouble but that's as it should be. The CR system tells us that a 4th level party should defeat a brown bear fairly handily. Make them second level rouges and the brown bear has a good shot at killing all of them--as the CR system says he should. (Plus you're really biasing the sample by pitting a single sneak-attackable improved grab creature against four rogues; he's do better against any other possible party composition).In any event, I don't see why the bear's special attack should ALWAYS be advantageous for it to use. There is no PC ability that is always advantageous to use. Power attack? Not against high AC creatures. Spring Attack? Not against Hydras. Spells? Not against Golems. Arrows? Not against huge elementals or monks. Etc etc. The bear's improved grab is very useful in a fairly wide range of circumstances--a relatively even number of bears and PCs, a one-on-one fight with the party's greatsword wielding barbarian (without his greatsword he's not so tough), if he gets the party's only rogue (grappling the rogue shuts him down almost completely and is likely to eliminate him in two rounds or so and reduces the threat from any archers or ranged touch spells the party might have without making the bear particularly vulnearble to anyone without sneak attack) et al. There's no reason that there shouldn't be situations where the bear doesn't want to use Improved Grab.Creatures with natural attack routines can get hosed in grapples. But lots of them (Tendriculos, Shambling Mound, Otyugh, giant scorpions, giant praying mantises, anything with rake, oozes, kraken, Remorhaz, et al) are very effective in grapples. And in many circumstances, even creatures like the brown bear are effective in grapples. For that matter, there's situations where it would be to the advantage of even a creature like a horse--which shouldn't usually grapple--to grapple (Imagine the warhorse of a paladin/rogue grappling a blackguard so the paladin could sneak attack him).</blockquote>

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