Full Progression Casters in d20 M?

[Stormborn]

Has anyone got a system for raising the magic level in d20 M by allowign for a full casting progression? I'm talking about feats or talents that would let a 1st level Smart Hero cast spells as a first level Wizard if he had the right background/talent but would still allow noncasting Smart Heroes. Basically I want to run d20 M classes but with magic that is at least closely equivalent to standard DnD, in power, variety, and realtive simplicity. I have an idea itching around in the back of my head (possibly involving spell points from Unearthed Arcana), but want to see if anyone else has tried this.

Oh, and before anyone mentions it:
a) I am not intersted in Grim Tales or True 20. I have nothing against them, but a few of my players balk at new systems. I can easilly add some new mechanics to DnD or d20 M but if I trotted out a completly variant d20 system they wouldn't like it as much.
b) I have looked at Elements of Magic and similar things, but don't really want a skill based casting system for this per se.

 

[DnDChick]

You could turn the wizard spellcasting progression into a talent tree.

Every time the Smart Hero takes the Wizard Spellcasting talent, he gets 1 level of Wizard Spellcasting as per a D&D wizard. (You could even give him 2 spellcaster levels every time he takes the Talent, since Talents come up every 2 levels. That would keep the D20 Modern character roughly on par with a D&D spellcaster.) The Spellcasting talent should have some fairly high prerequisites to keep it balanced, though ... a certain number of ranks in Knowledge (arcane lore) or some other requirement that would limit it to a small percent of the population.

The same idea would work for Sorcerers ala Charismatic Heroes, and Clerics ala Dedicated Heroes.

To make a full-progression Cleric, you could adapt the Turn Undead ability into a feat that requires a certain number of ranks of Knowledge (theology and philosophy).

 

[Stormborn]

Erica, Yeah, thanks thats kind of what I am thinking. Requiring a background to gain the Talent, then granting X levels of casting per talent, the an advanced class that grants Arcane/Divine Spell Casting X to cycle the character through the full progression. I'm still trying to get a grip on the full implications of that though. Would certainly have to disallow the "Hero Class" Plus feats from d20 F in that case.

 

[D_Sinclair]

Sounds like The Mystic Hero is right up your alley. It was written because the author didn't like the fact that magic had a 4th level on/off switch for its use. Along with presenting a new seventh basic class, it also provides details on taking elements of the class and integrating them into the other six basic classes.

 

[DnDChick]

Erica, Yeah, thanks thats kind of what I am thinking. Requiring a background to gain the Talent, then granting X levels of casting per talent, the an advanced class that grants Arcane/Divine Spell Casting X to cycle the character through the full progression. I'm still trying to get a grip on the full implications of that though. Would certainly have to disallow the "Hero Class" Plus feats from d20 F in that case.

There has to be some other drawbacks as well ... any level of spellcasting is more powerful than a typical D20 Modern talent.

 

[The Shaman]

There has to be some other drawbacks as well ... any level of spellcasting is more powerful than a typical D20 Modern talent.

Yep - with the MDT much lower than in D&D, evocation spells are significantly more lethal in d20 Modern.

 

[DnDChick]

That is true, but if you think about it a bit it's not a whole lot worse than guns and grenades except at higher levels.

Magic missiles always hit, but they only a little bit of damage with no chance for a crit, and you have a very limited supply of them. Same for a fireball ... does a lot of damage, but can't crit, and you can only cast a few of them.

A pistol needs an attack roll, but it does 2d6 damage and could crit for 4d6 damage, and you have as many bullets as you can carry and take the time to reload. A grenade does 4d6 damage and all you have to do is hit near the target.

As for bringing other elements of D&D to D20 Modern, I tinkered a bit with watering down the barbarian rage ability to make it into a talent tree for Strong Heroes.

 

[Stormborn]

Of course, any system where the characters had access to that level of spellcasting will very quickly no longer resemble the modern world, but thats OK for my purposes. I know that spellcasting Talents aren't going to equal the other talents, and thats my main concern. I don't have a group where everyone is going to want to take those talents just cause they are more powerful, but in as far as I can I try to make houserules "balanced." However, I don't want to introduce a 7th class just to keep them balanced. Maybe a more limited spell casting progression in the base classes, augmented in an advanced class. Still thinking.

I agree with DnDchick in that for the most part Magic damage and High Tech Weapons damage equal out. The only real difference is that a PC wont neccesarily know that the guy across the street in the trench coat is about to unleash a fireball, she would know if he was carrying a rocket launcher/plasma cannon. Sure there are ways to check, but they aren't as simple as paying attention to the "read aloud" descriptions.

 

[RangerWickett]

Well you've put me in a bit of a pickle, because you specifically said you don't want skill-based magic, and aside from being skill-based I think Elements of Magic - Mythic Earth fits your needs pretty well. I mean, I wrote it specifically because I wanted some good magic rules for modern games. It is a bit more complicated than just using D&D spells and accessing them with an advanced class at 4th level, but ME balances well at low levels.

If you want an easy fix that uses the same structure as the basic D20 Modern rules, require a feat to gain access to magic at all. This grants you the ability to cast spells of up to 0th level, and grants you one spell slot per day. A talent ups your spell level limit by 1 and increases your caster level. Another feat would grant you more spell slots. Work out the specifics based on whether you still want to follow the suggestion that 4th level characters are balanced if they have only a few spells a day, or if you think a 4th level character should have lots of spells.

 

[The Shaman]

That is true, but if you think about it a bit it's not a whole lot worse than guns and grenades except at higher levels.

Magic missiles always hit, but they only a little bit of damage with no chance for a crit, and you have a very limited supply of them. Same for a fireball ... does a lot of damage, but can't crit, and you can only cast a few of them.

By introducing magic earlier, spells get more powerful faster, and the caster has more of them more often.

It's just something to consider - magic is already quite powerful in Modern, and this makes it more so.