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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Aluvial" data-source="post: 5395903" data-attributes="member: 6862">Thanks to both Nebtin and Celebrim for the thoughtful responses.  You are both right, the feat needs to be worth it.  I am going to answer specific parts of your posts because I want to explain my rationale better (which helps me think through the process).  Your continued comments are greatly appreciated.This feat would help every time you roll a 1. So the feat would help in 5% of your attack rolls. The bonus occurs on the Fumble check to see if you roll on the specific outcomes chart.  So the procedure would be: creature rolls a 1. Roll a 1d12+10 to set the DC for the Fumble. The creature then rolls their Fumble check (BAB+Dex Mod+Feat). If they fail the check, they roll on the chart for the outcome.  My players and I like fumbles and we really don't mind the extra rolls. We like that you can do well, and we like that you can do poorly. The actual fumbles seem to occur to their opponents more often (based on the opponents are often more numerous and have lower BAB's).The extent of the chart that you roll on if you fail your Fumble check is not to dire. There are no automatic deaths or limb loss. I have 12 different effects; most of which have impact on the user is some way (Stumble, Fall Down, Provoke AoO) or their weapon (Fling Weapon, Damage Weapon, Ruin Weapon). I'll post what I have later. I see that you think the value is not worth it unless there are dire consequences, but I feel that if you are rolling a Fumble check for every 1, it will come into play quite often. The players and I don't see it that way. We see the fumble as "extra negative consequences." There is a balance to the threat and the threat roll; we have the fumble roll. The way out is only for those who take a feat. I see feats as a way to make your character unique. If you take Dodge, Mobility, and this Feat, you are a bit different from the character who takes Power Attack, Improved Critical.  We've been playing that the roll is a 15 for 5 or 6 years now. I think that I'm making the change to deal with what I see is an issue with the Fumble check's static threshold. If it is always a 15, then high level fighters will only miss on the .25% chance that they roll two 1's in a row. If I make the change, you roll the d12 you get a DC between 11 and 22. If a commoner with the pitchfork (BAB of 0) rolls a 1, he will fail a great percentage of the time. The 15th level fighter (BAB of +15) will make most of the time. If we choose to make a roll to set the DC for a Fumble the average will be slightly higher than the 15 we use now, but I like the idea that the potential for a Fumble, after rolling a 1, could be really mild or could be severe.  Yes, absolutely. Experience represented as BAB is the best way to overcome the Fumble DC. A Dex modifier makes sense as well.   The Fumble check will occur more. 1 in 20 times. The fumble may occur much less frequently, but the check will happen every time you roll a 1 (5% of the time). I agree that the bonus needs to be useful, or there would be no point, but like feats that add to critical in some way (I know there are some, but I can't think of any), I think that a reasonable bonus is all that is required. First off, I love that name, and that is very likely the one I will pick. I just couldn't think of it.... I was stuck tying to fit the word "fumble" in somehow and the best I could think of was "Anti-Fumble" which is very lame. I very much like the idea that this feat should be on the Fighter bonus feat list. I'm curious about the Wisdom prerequisite. Why Wisdom? Why not Dex? As for the benefit, I think that your two dice method might be a really good solution to the Improved Version, and you and Nebtin are right about the value of the Feat. Why have it if no one will take it. So, my idea of -2 is too weak but +5, I think, is too high.  I think that if I go with a +4 for the check, that would be very similar to the bonus described with Combat Casting... Both describe something similar that the creature/character is doing to prevent failure in their action. Aluvial</blockquote>

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