Funky Template Effects...?

[Ogrork the Mighty]

Ok, so I'm adding a template to an animal. The template makes the animal a magical beast. From what I understand, some of the animal's original base stats aren't recalculated using magical beast (e.g. BAB, base hp, base skills, base saves, etc.). The original stats are, however, modified by new changes in ability scores. Let's assume the base creature had 2 HD.

The funky part arises b/c the template also grants +2 HD (which would be magical beast HD). This makes things difficult. For example, how do I calculate base saves?; do I use animal or magical beast? If I consider the +2 magical beast HD seperately, that's a big jump in save modifiers (+3 for good saves). Should I now consider the creature a 4 HD magical beast for purposes of BAB and saves, or should I consider it a 2 HD animal plus 2 HD magical beast for BAB and saves?

Like I said, it get's kinda funky when a template changes type and HD...

 

[glass]

Some templates tell you not to recalculate stuff like BAB and saves for the new type, but they shouldn't also grant HD without telling you what how to resolve the issues that creates. Do you have a specific example of a template that has that problem?


glass.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

I don't want to say as I've got players on this board. But the template doesn't describe how to resolve these problems.

 

[werk]

how do I calculate base saves?; do I use animal or magical beast?

SRD:Most templates do not change the number of Hit Dice a monster has, but some do.

Don't add HD unless the template or size change calls for it.

SRD:As with attacks, changing a monster’s type does not always change its base saving throw bonuses. You only need to adjust them for new modifiers for Constitution, Dexterity, or Wisdom. A template may, however, state that a monster has a different "good" saving throw.

So if it doesn't declare a new save progression, it only gets adjusted by the stat. Skeleton is a good template, it shows how to adjust everything.

-Drop any Hit Dice gained from class levels (to a minimum of 1) and raise remaining Hit Dice to d12s.
-Base save bonuses are Fort +1/3 HD, Ref +1/3 HD, and Will +½ HD + 2.

If it doesn't call out how to change it, it doesn't change IIRC.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

The template calls for adding +2 HD, but says nothing else on the matter.

The problem stems from how to seperate the previous base save modifiers (for animal) from the new save modifiers (for magical beasts). If I'm supposed to leave the old save modifiers intact and simply modify for the new +2 HD (magical beast) from the template, how do I determine what those +2 HD do to saves? The simple solution would be to just use the saves for a 4 HD creature (since the original had 2, plus 2 for the template), but that would seem to contradict the RAW. Treating the +2 HD as a 2nd-lvl character would give an unusually strong boost to the creature's saves, as it would be gaining the benefits of the strong initial saves twice, once for 1st-lvl animal and once for 1st-lvl magical beast.

Dilemmas, dilemmas...

 

[Voadam]

two options:

One: consider all the new HD and any advancement by HD as the original type since you do not recalcluate them. This is in essence first adding 2 HD to the base creature then adding the changing type template on top of that new base.

Two: consider the new HD and any new advancement as the new type and treat it like multiclassing in racial HD (similar to lycanthropy).

 

[blargney the second]

I'd say just multi-class it with 2 levels of magical beast.
-blarg

 

[werk]

The template calls for adding +2 HD, but says nothing else on the matter.

The problem stems from how to seperate the previous base save modifiers (for animal) from the new save modifiers (for magical beasts).

you don't.

If I'm supposed to leave the old save modifiers intact and simply modify for the new +2 HD (magical beast) from the template, how do I determine what those +2 HD do to saves?

As per the table which is based on type http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#increasingHitDice

 

[Shin Okada]

When a template changes the type of creature, that creature gets an Augmented subtype. In case of ex-animal magical beast, it usually become Magical Beast (Augmented Animal). Now, something with augmented subtype is meant to have traits of current (magical beast) type, but features of the original (animal) type. Type of HD, BAB, saves and skill points are included in "features", So unless otherwise noted, those should be calculated as original types (animal).

 

[Andre]

Ok, so I'm adding a template to an animal. The template makes the animal a magical beast. From what I understand, some of the animal's original base stats aren't recalculated using magical beast (e.g. BAB, base hp, base skills, base saves, etc.). The original stats are, however, modified by new changes in ability scores. Let's assume the base creature had 2 HD.

The funky part arises b/c the template also grants +2 HD (which would be magical beast HD). This makes things difficult. For example, how do I calculate base saves?; do I use animal or magical beast? If I consider the +2 magical beast HD seperately, that's a big jump in save modifiers (+3 for good saves). Should I now consider the creature a 4 HD magical beast for purposes of BAB and saves, or should I consider it a 2 HD animal plus 2 HD magical beast for BAB and saves?

Like I said, it get's kinda funky when a template changes type and HD...

Typically, the first thing you change when adding a template is the creature type (if applicable). Using the info you've given us, your 2 HD Animal becomes a 2 HD Magical Beast. Then you add two more hit dice, so you end up with a 4 HD Magical Beast.

As for figured characteristics, you have two choices. The simplest is to just add those changes specifically called for by the template - don't modify anything for the change in creature type and/or hit dice. The more complex method is modify the creature's hit dice and stats (Str, etc.), then calculate all figured stats from there (BAB, saves, etc).

Keep in mind that your players won't really know which choice you've made, so don't feel you have to recalculate everything. If it's worth your time, by all means do so. If, OTOH, you have more important things to do, stick with the simple method - just add the two extra hit dice and move on. It's all about the game, not whether or not your creature is book-legal.