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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Gold Roger" data-source="post: 3014896" data-attributes="member: 33904">From a discussion that developed the "What was player skill" thread and went of topic.I know I really shouldn't answer this, because it's of topic, but please everybody alow me to answer this shortly.I don't think the problem lies with 3rd edition. It lies with some of the people you picked up with the advent of 3rd edition. Some examples to prove my point:-You said above yourself you play with rules lawyers. Rules lawyers are always a problem and will always whine. That they have with 3rd edition something that looks like a rule for only encounters they can beat when seen from the right ankle. Nevermind that the same "rules" state that there should be an unbeatable opponent once in a while.-The adventure you played is one of the first of the 3rd edition adventure path, modules design to showcase what 3rd edition was supposed to be and how it's supposed to harken back to the early days of D&D.-In my above example I've used no less than 14 goblin level one rogues, 1 level 2 goblin rogue/fighter and a level 3 dolgrim cleric. Against four first level PC's that had wealth above the guidelines. As you can see I've used a unbeatable high challenge and didn't stick to the equipment "rules". Nobody complained about me unbalancing, even though we are all 3rd edition players. And this wasn't the first time either. I've thrown people into encounters way over their had, took away and destroyed equipment and played low magic games. And never once did anybody complain, and while sometimes things I did where plain bad DMing, my players would propably agree that some others of these actions where examples for my best DMing to date. And no one of us knows anything but 3rd edition.-Look at the wotc boards, where some of the games main financiers post- Young kids without a cluethat buy almost every wotc book and play games that most of us here would see as abysmal. However, they have fun and when you compare their stories with those many old timers tell of their first games. Sure, some of them bitch and whine about a lack of balance, but that's just some word they picked up to help their bitching and whining, they would have done it in earlier editions as well. But many will enjoy telling you stories of going up against an overpowering monster or some ad hoc ruling their DM did.It's my strong believ that for a good RPG game you need a group that is willing to have fun in a grup, step back for each other and trust their DM. If you do have such a group you can play any system the way you prefer. If you want that to be OD&D that's cool,but you can play 3rd edition that way as well (and as you said you actually do so, so I don't understand why you say one can't).But I think many people don't understand the term of balance as it is used in todays D&D design. Placing a CR10+ Roper in a 4th level dungeon isn't unbalaced. Designing said Roper and declaring it a CR4 is unbalanced design.So, my answer to this is: You may not have heard "this isn't balanced" earlier on, but the people that use this argument to whine where there before and if you haven't met them before you're a lucky guy.Discuss and please don't turn this into a edition war everybody, because right now, it isn't.</blockquote>

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