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Message: <blockquote data-quote="coyote6" data-source="post: 3749752" data-attributes="member: 1225">I don't know about that; they both have saves, and since zone of truth is an area spell, you don't know if any particular person made their save. So you cast the spell, but you have no way of knowing who is being forced to tell the truth, and who made their save & is lying anyways.With discern lies, you will know if they made their save -- but if they do save, you don't know if they're lying or not. They may save, and tell the truth anyways. If they fail their save, all you can learn is that they're lying; you won't know what the truth is, and you won't be able to force them to tell the truth.Heck, a proper suggestion is a more effective truth-forcing spell ("I suggest you cooperate and truthfully tell us what you know" -- you'll know if they made the save or not).Eh, then it's just "scry and wait for 'em to leave home". Disallow scry as a viable means of targetting a teleport, and you'll be fine -- scrying on someone no longer allows you to count their location as "viewed once". Then there are lots of other options for adjusting teleport to make it less game altering -- make it less precise, as suggested; use something like Arcana Evolved's teleport version; make teleport not actually instantaneous, but instead takes a few rounds -- but there's some sort of immediately obvious display/disturbance at your destination (thus, if you're trying to TP on top of someone, they get advance notice); add bad after-effects to teleportation (e.g., sickened or nauseated on arrival for a minute, maybe active spells disrupted, etc.); make anti-teleport spells lower level than teleport, and long-lasting; provide entirely non-magical anti-teleport options (e.g., can't teleport past lead or some other substance, etc.); etc.And teleport doesn't let you get to the Unknown Tomb of Plot Devices, which is lost somewhere in the Wilderness of Lostiness; if you've never been there, and there's no one there to scry on, you can't teleport there. (You can, of course, greater teleport there, if you have a good description; greater teleport adds some extra problems...)What it really lets you do is adventure from home; one of my groups has a sorcerer with teleport, and a cleric with a helm of teleportation. The group will delve into a dungeon (Heart of Nightfang Spire, say), have their 4 CR-appropriate encounters or whatever, pick an out-of-the-way spot to memorize, and teleport back to the inn (or their home, or wherever). Come the morning, they teleport from the inn to yesterday's spot in the dungeon, and continue. Brings a whole different meaning to "telecommuting".In Exalted, the "speak with dead" thaumaturgical rite lets you ask the corpse what it's seen since its death & a day before. That makes the spell very different, though you still have the "who killed you" problem. OTOH, the specified somatic component in Exalted might dissuade some people from using it (must osculate the corpse). <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Also, as mentioned, smart murderers will mutilate the corpse to prevent speak with dead from working at all. OTOH, that trick doesn't actually seem to work with the rules as written, thanks to make whole. A corpse is not a creature, right? So make whole will repair a mutilated corpse, unless it's been burnt (and it's a lot more trouble to burn a corpse than to cut out its tongue or crush its jaw). Put make whole on my list of "too powerful/useful" spells. ("The ancient tome must be handled with the greatest of care, lest it crumble away!" "Old and crumbly? That's not 'warped, burned, disintegrated, ground to powder, melted, or vaporized', right? I cast make whole -- it's fine now." Or "The runestone is worn with age, it's difficult to make out what it says." "I got it -- make whole.")Magic circles & protections from various alignments make these pretty much non-issues for a smart group, IME. Of course, if you do this......then you'll have a problem. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />I wouldn't mind seeing fly nerfed some more (or rather, nerfed differently] -- again, Arcana Evolved's version is nice -- the speed is the creature's ground speed or 30 ft., whichever is worse. That turns fly from a speed-booster to a more flexible levitate; if you change the maneuverability to average, I think I'd like it more.Then, as P-cat said, there's find the path; add discern location, freedom of movement, tongues, comprehend languages ("Decipher Script? Why waste skill points?"), etc. I don't mind knock quite as much; it generally gets used IME when there's no time for a full-round Open Locks check, when the lock is (apparently) beyond the rogue's skill, or when some kind of arcane lock/hold portal effect is involved. OTOH, I wouldn't mind them bringing back some multi-purpose spells -- emotion & its ilk, rather than having every spell be for exactly one and only one thing.</blockquote>

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