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Message: <blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 6924806" data-attributes="member: 2067">Kind of an extreme reaction, man. Just as a bit of a thought experiment...The Spellbook of Cleetus, 'Wizert.'Cantrips: Light, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation1st Level Spells: Comprehend Languages (Ritual), Detect Magic,Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Shield, Unseen Servant (Ritual)Spells added from level-ups:2nd: Find Familiar (Help action!), Sleep3rd: Darkness, Mirror Image4th: Misty Step, Rope Trick5th: Haste, Fly6th: Animate Dead, Gaseous Form7th: Arcane Eye, Conjure Minor Elementals8th: Greater Invisibility, Stoneskin9th: Animate Objects, Wall of Force10th: Conjure Elemental, Creation11th: Create Undead, Globe of Invulnerability12th: Arcane Gate, True Seeing13th: Etherealness, Teleport14th: Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion, Plane Shift15th: Antimagic Field, Power Word: Stun16th: Demiplane, Mind Blank17th: Time Stop, Wish18th: Astral Projection, Power Word: Kill19th: Foresight, Shapechange20th: Clone, GateNone of those use spell attacks or saving throws. In the end, looks like Cleetus is a pretty dang fine "utility mage," though he's pretty reliant on buffs and summons. He's actually quite like a conjurer - all planar breaches and calling extraplanar beings. I might substitute some of those high-level spells for more broadly useful low-level spells (he doesn't have magic weapon, for instance, though you'd probably be using that more often than....demiplane). There's lots of options he didn't take that still don't use your spellcasting ability modifier. It might also be "fine" if the player puts points into INT over the course of the character's career (he'd never get to 20, but he'd get to 18) to shore up the occasional direct-attack spell he might learn or gain from a scroll or something...but probably not necessary.A sorcerer could do a lot of that, too, though their lower-level spell choices might look pretty different, and there'd be a few swaps. Sorcs have a bit more of an "attack and damage" focused spell list, but it's not so narrow that they don't have enough options, if they wanted to dump CHA.I think clerics fare even better, thanks to their focus on healing/buffing/defensive magic, which doesn't rely on spellcasting ability modifier much. Like I said, if you want to ban INT 8 Wizards or whatever, go for it and good gaming. But I don't think you need to consider such a thing necessary from a balance perspective, even if it is something you want to do.</blockquote>

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