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Game design has "moved on"
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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6228558" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>Agreed.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Agreed again</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And here your experience <em>really </em>doesn't match mine - at least not in the first part. My rule of thumb on whether I'll GM or teach a system is that I won't GM or teach any system where I need to look something up in the rulebook in the course of play. And I won't GM or teach any system you can't cram down onto two sides of A4 and the character sheets (bonus if character sheets are index card sized) if you are really trying. And NPCs can fit on an index card. I can play such systems (I used to be and in many ways still am a GURPS fan) but I've enough to think about when running the games. I think that's a pretty good indication of a simple system.</p><p></p><p>Games I know I can run in such a manner because I have done so:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Dread (2006)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Fate Core and FAE (2013)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Marvel Heroic Roleplaying (2012)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Dungeon World (2011)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Monsterhearts (2011)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Leverage (2010)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Fiasco (2009)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Firefly (2014)</li> </ul><p></p><p>Games I consider on the borderline for such an attempt - either borderline for the two page rule or that I think I could run but haven't tried:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">4e (2008) (I must finish my trifold for it - it does offload a lot onto the character sheets, however)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Smallville (2009)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Apocalypse World (2010)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Dogs in the Vineyard (2004)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">WFRP 3e (2010)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Serenity (2005)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Star Wars: Edge of Empire (2013)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Feng Shui (1996)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">oD&D/Rules Cyclopaedia D&D (1974)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Marvel FASERIP (1986)</li> </ul><p></p><p>Games I own and have played that wouldn't even try to run without a rulebook handy because they have a lot of rules</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">GURPS (1986)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">RIFTS (1990)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">AD&D (1979)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">D&D 3.X (2000)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Vampire: The Masquerade (1989) + family</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Ars Magica (1987)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">WFRP 1e (1985)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Traveller (1977)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Rolemaster (1980+) (Actually the rules of most editions aren't bad - it's just the tables).</li> </ul><p></p><p>Notice any patterns? Just about anything coming with a pedigree traceable through the Forge tends to be simpler than anything dominant in the 80s or 90s. And the OSR isn't quite as pro-simplicity and elegance, but definitely looks to "Rulings, not rules". For the last ten years in my experience roleplaying has moved away from rules and minuatae and towards creativity.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That just shows where you were looking to be honest. The Forge was going from at least 1999 and Usenet had been making arguments long before that. However most of the discussion on good rules was taking place away from D&D circles, normally by disgruntled White Wolf players (which is how The Forge started). No one even bothered to critique AD&D's design (or bolt ons), and one of the impressive things about The Forge in the circles it emerged from was that it was slightly pro-D&D. But the idea that game design and improvements are a crock is itself a giant steaming crock. FATAL isn't just a bad game because of the subject matter.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 6228558, member: 87792"] Agreed. Agreed again And here your experience [I]really [/I]doesn't match mine - at least not in the first part. My rule of thumb on whether I'll GM or teach a system is that I won't GM or teach any system where I need to look something up in the rulebook in the course of play. And I won't GM or teach any system you can't cram down onto two sides of A4 and the character sheets (bonus if character sheets are index card sized) if you are really trying. And NPCs can fit on an index card. I can play such systems (I used to be and in many ways still am a GURPS fan) but I've enough to think about when running the games. I think that's a pretty good indication of a simple system. Games I know I can run in such a manner because I have done so: [LIST] [*]Dread (2006) [*]Fate Core and FAE (2013) [*]Marvel Heroic Roleplaying (2012) [*]Dungeon World (2011) [*]Monsterhearts (2011) [*]Leverage (2010) [*]Fiasco (2009) [*]Firefly (2014) [/LIST] Games I consider on the borderline for such an attempt - either borderline for the two page rule or that I think I could run but haven't tried: [LIST] [*]4e (2008) (I must finish my trifold for it - it does offload a lot onto the character sheets, however) [*]Smallville (2009) [*]Apocalypse World (2010) [*]Dogs in the Vineyard (2004) [*]WFRP 3e (2010) [*]Serenity (2005) [*]Star Wars: Edge of Empire (2013) [*]Feng Shui (1996) [*]oD&D/Rules Cyclopaedia D&D (1974) [*]Marvel FASERIP (1986) [/LIST] Games I own and have played that wouldn't even try to run without a rulebook handy because they have a lot of rules [LIST] [*]GURPS (1986) [*]RIFTS (1990) [*]AD&D (1979) [*]D&D 3.X (2000) [*]Vampire: The Masquerade (1989) + family [*]Ars Magica (1987) [*]WFRP 1e (1985) [*]Traveller (1977) [*]Rolemaster (1980+) (Actually the rules of most editions aren't bad - it's just the tables). [/LIST] Notice any patterns? Just about anything coming with a pedigree traceable through the Forge tends to be simpler than anything dominant in the 80s or 90s. And the OSR isn't quite as pro-simplicity and elegance, but definitely looks to "Rulings, not rules". For the last ten years in my experience roleplaying has moved away from rules and minuatae and towards creativity. That just shows where you were looking to be honest. The Forge was going from at least 1999 and Usenet had been making arguments long before that. However most of the discussion on good rules was taking place away from D&D circles, normally by disgruntled White Wolf players (which is how The Forge started). No one even bothered to critique AD&D's design (or bolt ons), and one of the impressive things about The Forge in the circles it emerged from was that it was slightly pro-D&D. But the idea that game design and improvements are a crock is itself a giant steaming crock. FATAL isn't just a bad game because of the subject matter. [/QUOTE]
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