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<blockquote data-quote="Ratskinner" data-source="post: 6228605" data-attributes="member: 6688937"><p>EDIT: So [MENTION=12037]ThirdWizard[/MENTION] goes and writes a very concise version of my thoughts while I have this up and get distracted by the kids....</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Kinda subtle, but basically I think it comes down to "we can do X better now." Where I think that gets confusing is when people have different ideas about whether "X" is desirable or not. Also, those ideas do change with time. I know that there are many things that I would have demanded out of any game in say...1992, that I've grown out of by now. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes....<img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/paranoid.png" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":uhoh:" title="Paranoid :uhoh:" data-shortname=":uhoh:" /></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think the biggest thing is the recognition that different goals of play are often served by different rules. So now, if we want a story-focused, character driven game we can produce that. Alternatively, if we want a very challenge-oriented game with fine-grained tactical options, we can do that as well. Previous generations of games and designers didn't have that advantage, and often produced...well, self-contradictory games. </p><p></p><p>Pre-WotC D&D, at times, suffers greatly from its incoherence in this area, IMO. However, it also benefited from it, because it was hidden behind the incoherent editing and production values. Folks came to AD&D and BECMI and took from it what they wanted. In a broad sense, all the basic motivations for playing a tabletop rpg were <em>invented</em> (or rather <em>first experienced</em>) by people playing one of those early versions of D&D. On the other hand, you might say that WotC D&D has suffered from its coherence. Whatever else you might say about them, 3e and 4e hit very hard on their design notes, which drove some folks away as much as it attracted others. </p><p></p><p> I think this kinda leaves D&D (or its designers) in a tough spot. While other games can pick and choose which goals to support, and what mechanics to even consider, they get to start "fresh" and with a "clean slate". No one cares if Savage World or FATE don't have a 5d6 <em>Fireball</em> for a 5th level mage...or even if there are classes or levels at all in those games! But no matter what their play goals/styles, most people seem to want D&D to serve it, but also want to see all those sacred cows lying about the field. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/erm.png" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":erm:" title="Erm :erm:" data-shortname=":erm:" />....there <em>may be</em> some amount of fashion to peoples tabletop preferences, but I think its primarily a matter of taste. I consider the continued strong participation in 3.PF to reflect the general preference for that type of system. I don't think "fashion" has moved many people from one style to another very often. Of course, people can evolve over time. However, I don't think that it seems to follow the sort of "tidal" shifts that fashion does. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>ahhh...At a small scale, no. At a large scale, only rarely. (As in, I think the chaos of early D&D helped it a bit...but not much.)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes and yes, honestly. I recently got to play in an AD&D (1e) game that was as RAW as we could make it from the original books we had...and I know I'm committing sacrilege here...I was astounded, I mean utterly astounded at how horrible it was. Between the disorganization, contradiction, and incoherence of the rules, it was one of the worst TRPG experiences I've recently had. Comparing that to almost any modern game...I have difficulty imagining that many young persons would choose to learn and play AD&D over the modern game. (...and that's the game I cut my teeth on!) Also, when you consider that (until the recent reprints) those books weren't readily available to a newcomer to the hobby, I think you basically end up with a one-way street that leads to people playing the new games. Even my OSR-minded group uses Castles and Crusades as a starting point, rather than one of the previous editions.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ratskinner, post: 6228605, member: 6688937"] EDIT: So [MENTION=12037]ThirdWizard[/MENTION] goes and writes a very concise version of my thoughts while I have this up and get distracted by the kids.... Kinda subtle, but basically I think it comes down to "we can do X better now." Where I think that gets confusing is when people have different ideas about whether "X" is desirable or not. Also, those ideas do change with time. I know that there are many things that I would have demanded out of any game in say...1992, that I've grown out of by now. Yes....:uhoh: I think the biggest thing is the recognition that different goals of play are often served by different rules. So now, if we want a story-focused, character driven game we can produce that. Alternatively, if we want a very challenge-oriented game with fine-grained tactical options, we can do that as well. Previous generations of games and designers didn't have that advantage, and often produced...well, self-contradictory games. Pre-WotC D&D, at times, suffers greatly from its incoherence in this area, IMO. However, it also benefited from it, because it was hidden behind the incoherent editing and production values. Folks came to AD&D and BECMI and took from it what they wanted. In a broad sense, all the basic motivations for playing a tabletop rpg were [I]invented[/I] (or rather [I]first experienced[/I]) by people playing one of those early versions of D&D. On the other hand, you might say that WotC D&D has suffered from its coherence. Whatever else you might say about them, 3e and 4e hit very hard on their design notes, which drove some folks away as much as it attracted others. I think this kinda leaves D&D (or its designers) in a tough spot. While other games can pick and choose which goals to support, and what mechanics to even consider, they get to start "fresh" and with a "clean slate". No one cares if Savage World or FATE don't have a 5d6 [I]Fireball[/I] for a 5th level mage...or even if there are classes or levels at all in those games! But no matter what their play goals/styles, most people seem to want D&D to serve it, but also want to see all those sacred cows lying about the field. :erm:....there [I]may be[/I] some amount of fashion to peoples tabletop preferences, but I think its primarily a matter of taste. I consider the continued strong participation in 3.PF to reflect the general preference for that type of system. I don't think "fashion" has moved many people from one style to another very often. Of course, people can evolve over time. However, I don't think that it seems to follow the sort of "tidal" shifts that fashion does. ahhh...At a small scale, no. At a large scale, only rarely. (As in, I think the chaos of early D&D helped it a bit...but not much.) Yes and yes, honestly. I recently got to play in an AD&D (1e) game that was as RAW as we could make it from the original books we had...and I know I'm committing sacrilege here...I was astounded, I mean utterly astounded at how horrible it was. Between the disorganization, contradiction, and incoherence of the rules, it was one of the worst TRPG experiences I've recently had. Comparing that to almost any modern game...I have difficulty imagining that many young persons would choose to learn and play AD&D over the modern game. (...and that's the game I cut my teeth on!) Also, when you consider that (until the recent reprints) those books weren't readily available to a newcomer to the hobby, I think you basically end up with a one-way street that leads to people playing the new games. Even my OSR-minded group uses Castles and Crusades as a starting point, rather than one of the previous editions. [/QUOTE]
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