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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 5158520" data-attributes="member: 4937">So, although I'd like to keep a specific discussion of 4e out of it, since you keep referring back to another thread, let me address this in those terms.In 4e, suppose you are unconscious until you make a saving throw.&nbsp; Each turn then, what happens to you as a player?&nbsp; Well, each turn you have an important task to undertake.&nbsp; You must throw a dice and determine if you can wake your character up from their torpid state.&nbsp; As a player, you are participating.&nbsp; However, if you fail in your save, you as a character and you as a player don't get the oppurtunity to contribute toward success.&nbsp; You claim that you can fundamentally distinguish a situation where you as a player roll a die and fail to wake your character up, and you as a player roll a die and fail to hit the target.&nbsp; But, from a play perspective, you the player participated in the exact same amount and in the exact same way and contributed the exact same thing to the game state in both cases.&nbsp; You then want to claim that the player who is unhappy with being unconscious for several rounds would be happy with missing all of their attacks for several rounds, and you know what - I have a very hard time believing that.&nbsp; Because while the fluff we dress the two events in is different, from a meta-perspective its the exact same degree of participation.&nbsp; Player roles dice; player fails at task and can take no other actions that turn.&nbsp; You claim you aren't talking about success or failure?I think I know exactly what you are talking about.&nbsp; Every single saving throw comes up a 1, and the party gets slaughtered; no freakin' difference in the actual participation level of the player.&nbsp; On that we are agreed.&nbsp; If you don't get it yet, I don't know what to tell you.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 5158520, member: 4937"] So, although I'd like to keep a specific discussion of 4e out of it, since you keep referring back to another thread, let me address this in those terms. In 4e, suppose you are unconscious until you make a saving throw. Each turn then, what happens to you as a player? Well, each turn you have an important task to undertake. You must throw a dice and determine if you can wake your character up from their torpid state. As a player, you are participating. However, if you fail in your save, you as a character and you as a player don't get the oppurtunity to contribute toward success. You claim that you can fundamentally distinguish a situation where you as a player roll a die and fail to wake your character up, and you as a player roll a die and fail to hit the target. But, from a play perspective, you the player participated in the exact same amount and in the exact same way and contributed the exact same thing to the game state in both cases. You then want to claim that the player who is unhappy with being unconscious for several rounds would be happy with missing all of their attacks for several rounds, and you know what - I have a very hard time believing that. Because while the fluff we dress the two events in is different, from a meta-perspective its the exact same degree of participation. Player roles dice; player fails at task and can take no other actions that turn. You claim you aren't talking about success or failure? I think I know exactly what you are talking about. Every single saving throw comes up a 1, and the party gets slaughtered; no freakin' difference in the actual participation level of the player. On that we are agreed. If you don't get it yet, I don't know what to tell you. [/QUOTE]

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