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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 5164516" data-attributes="member: 4937">I don't think we are really disagreeing here.  I think we might be quibbling over the best way to say something, but other than that, your quotes are exactly the sort of thing I had in mind when I wrote my post.I don't think I have to claim that Gary has a problem with some challenges being overcome thru character power alone.  He only objects to when character skill rather than player skill overcomes all challenges.I think however that its clear from what you quote and what you write that Gygax thinks character level is a reward for player skill rather than a substitute for it, and that the two should go together.  This is what I was trying to say.  Advancement in character skill, under the Gygax model, should not occur unless player skill has increased accordingly and further advancement would require yet more increases in player skill.Or, to put it another way, Gygax has an expectation that failure is part of the fun of the game and argues (persuasively AFAIC) that without it rewards have a diminishing margin of return.  And here you get to the intersection of what I'm talking about with what Gygax was fighting against back in the day.  What it comes down to is that while I agree failure sucks, then only thing that is worse than the singificant possibility of failure is the impossibility of significant failure.  As much as regular doses of failure irritate the ego gamer short term and to a lesser extent (the extent that every gamer is to some degree achievement oriented) every gamer, they are necessary to the overall fun of the game in the long run.</blockquote>

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