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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 5170877" data-attributes="member: 22779">Hrm.  If you really don't see the difference, I'm not sure anything I can bring up will change your mind, but, I'll give it a shot.My fae touched warlock's at will either does straight up damage, or deals less damage and makes me invisible to that target for the round.  Right there, that's a significant tactical choice.  One might be better than the other depending on the situation.  My Daily deals lots of damage and allows me to slide the target three squares, and I can then slide him every round after that until he makes a save with a minor action.Thus, if there is any damaging terrain out there, the daily becomes a really good choice.  And this is just with a first level character.  Then again, if that's not tactical difference to you, I'm not sure we're ever going to agree.Just for full disclosure, in the other 4e game I've been playing a warlord.  Every single one of my abilities causes another player to do something.  Either shift or attack.  Possibly even a free move.  If I get smacked with a debilitating effect, you're not only stripping away my actions, but stripping at least one extra action per round.This is where I think Celebrim really misses the mark.  He presumes that a given average round is the same between editions.  You make an attack, hit or miss, and move on.  4e is most certainly not built this way.  Every single round, and I mean every round, you should be seeing out of turn actions by other players.  About the most boring class is something like a striker which generally only has a single, personal effect riding his abilities.  Generally every other class is causing extra actions by other players.I think Pemerton makes a good point of it.  Older D&D presumed you'd be playing multiple characters, often at the same time.  Unless the DM rolled attacks and damage for all your henchmen/hirelings, it's quite possible that you'd take multiple turns per round.But, every subsequent supplement starting with the Unearthed Arcana has given more actions to individual players.  Fighters gain multiple attacks at first level.  Rangers get two weapons or bows which get two attacks per round.  On and on.BTW, jmucchiello, are you honestly claiming that you averaged 20+ combatants in the fight at the same time, AND your fights averaged 30 minutes (or so) AND you had the depth of tactical choices that you would get in 3e?  Really?</blockquote>

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