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<blockquote data-quote="Ilbranteloth" data-source="post: 7739046" data-attributes="member: 6778044"><p>So to start with, I don't think that what you are describing is taking away player agency. I can't stand that term to start with, because there is no agreed-upon definition of it, particularly when it comes to RPGs.</p><p></p><p>So I'll give you my definition:</p><p></p><p>Player Agency: The actions and decisions that a player is allowed to make <em>as defined by the rules of the game</em>. In an RPG, the rules of the game also include, to a significant degree, the setting. So taking away player agency inhibits that. But you can't compare player agency between games, because no game operating within its rules takes away player agency.</p><p></p><p>I'll give you a non-RPG example. In soccer (football for the rest of the world), you cannot touch the ball with you hands. Is that taking away player agency? Not at all. It makes no difference that in (American) football that you can touch the ball with your hands. It's a different game. The player still has their full agency to play the game within the rules.</p><p></p><p>However, if you tell a player that they are too good, and that they are only allowed to score 3 goals in a game, after which they are pulled from the game, then their agency is being impacted - provided that it's not a rule that applies to <em>all</em> players. In that case, you might choose not to play because you don't like the rules, but if the rule exists in the game for all players, then it is not impacting your player agency.</p><p></p><p>In an RPG, the rules are often impacted by the setting. The obvious modifications are to available races, classes, etc. House rules also apply. As long as the rules apply equally to all, and the rules aren't being changed at the whim of the referee or DM, then they aren't affecting player agency.</p><p></p><p>Having said that, you might not like rules that take away your <em>character agency</em>. The Pendragon and Cthulhu rules do this. When certain circumstances are met, the player either has additional input that requires them to roleplay in a certain way, or the GM takes over the character's actions for a period of time. </p><p></p><p>Madness and Insanity have always been issues with any RPG. I love the way 5e handles it, by moving it into the realm of role-playing. The problem is, it would be disruptive at the very least, and downright risky in terms of real relationships at the table, if the kind of madness that Cthulhu is simulating to be addressed solely through role-playing. That's not to say that some groups couldn't handle it, but in most cases when a player has a character that is dangerous to the others in the party, or the character is argumentative or combative to the degree that it brings the game to a halt, it's very, very hard to run the game itself.</p><p></p><p>Some examples (based specifically on comments where people across the internet have specifically flagged "player agency" in threads I've participated in): </p><p></p><p>A game that requires players to start with pre-generated characters, or partially pre-generated characters does not take away player agency. The player doesn't participate in the full character creation process that RPGs often include, but they still have 100% control over what to do with that character. This isn't that different than an actor being given a role in a play or movie. They have a framework provided that they flesh out based on that framework. Even a script that includes all of the dialogue doesn't take away "actor agency," it just provides a more restrictive framework.</p><p></p><p>Likewise, a game that requires the players to roll stats, even in order, does not alter player agency.</p><p></p><p>Rules that might result in somebody sitting out for a period of time (death of a character, unconscious, or even the party splitting up), do not alter player agency. They reduce "in game time." This isn't all that different than playing defense in football, or when your team is at bat in baseball. In many sports you might be on the bench for most if not all of the game. While RPGs aren't sports, and they are designed for everybody to be able to play as much as possible, if the table is more concerned with continuity than providing a character to a player who's character just died hundreds of miles from civilization, then they might be out for a while.</p><p></p><p>Some games are designed to specifically eliminate everybody (10 Candles, for example), but it doesn't mean that the ones that die early aren't still part of the game, and can't participate as spectators and experience the night in a meaningful way. Science fiction games are often more susceptible to something of this nature, if they are literally thousands, if not millions, of miles from anybody else, and somebody dies. An <em>Alien</em>-based RPG would be of this sort, but it certainly would still be exciting to see how things turn out, even if you died early.</p><p></p><p>The examples you've given - Cthulhu and Pendragon - don't (can't) inherently take away player agency. Although Cthulhu might have fewer safeguards in place. That's really going to depend on whether the players and the GM are all on the same page and they trust the GM to be fair.</p><p></p><p>And that, to me, is really the most important thing. The DM and players need to be in agreement about what agency the players have. What they are and aren't allowed to do in the rules, and when they have control of their character and when they don't. I've never had issues with a player being upset when they've had to "sit out" because of certain circumstances. I give the players options (discussed at session 0, and out-of game discussions as well), but also in the moment, the table and the player are free to speak up if they want to address it specifically. When we're in a situation where it seems clear that it might be a while, I explicitly give them options and let them decide how we'll handle it. Almost always, they choose to sit out and enjoy the story for what it is, and what's going on at the time.</p><p></p><p>I should also point out, that I consider all players to be participants, even when their character isn't present in a given scene. In an RPG, everything is in our heads, and we often forget things, fail to connect things, act out of character, etc. I do not restrict my players from participating, viewing them as part of the "collective memory/conscience/intelligence" of any given character or group of characters. That doesn't mean they get to act for others, but speaking up to remind somebody of something they found three weeks ago that might be important, is fine. We also operate under the general assumption that with all of the time the characters spend together, that they will relate experiences of importance away from the group when they have the chance. Unless there is something they specifically don't want to share, then everybody is at the table and they are assumed to know what happened once they are back together.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ilbranteloth, post: 7739046, member: 6778044"] So to start with, I don't think that what you are describing is taking away player agency. I can't stand that term to start with, because there is no agreed-upon definition of it, particularly when it comes to RPGs. So I'll give you my definition: Player Agency: The actions and decisions that a player is allowed to make [I]as defined by the rules of the game[/I]. In an RPG, the rules of the game also include, to a significant degree, the setting. So taking away player agency inhibits that. But you can't compare player agency between games, because no game operating within its rules takes away player agency. I'll give you a non-RPG example. In soccer (football for the rest of the world), you cannot touch the ball with you hands. Is that taking away player agency? Not at all. It makes no difference that in (American) football that you can touch the ball with your hands. It's a different game. The player still has their full agency to play the game within the rules. However, if you tell a player that they are too good, and that they are only allowed to score 3 goals in a game, after which they are pulled from the game, then their agency is being impacted - provided that it's not a rule that applies to [I]all[/I] players. In that case, you might choose not to play because you don't like the rules, but if the rule exists in the game for all players, then it is not impacting your player agency. In an RPG, the rules are often impacted by the setting. The obvious modifications are to available races, classes, etc. House rules also apply. As long as the rules apply equally to all, and the rules aren't being changed at the whim of the referee or DM, then they aren't affecting player agency. Having said that, you might not like rules that take away your [I]character agency[/I]. The Pendragon and Cthulhu rules do this. When certain circumstances are met, the player either has additional input that requires them to roleplay in a certain way, or the GM takes over the character's actions for a period of time. Madness and Insanity have always been issues with any RPG. I love the way 5e handles it, by moving it into the realm of role-playing. The problem is, it would be disruptive at the very least, and downright risky in terms of real relationships at the table, if the kind of madness that Cthulhu is simulating to be addressed solely through role-playing. That's not to say that some groups couldn't handle it, but in most cases when a player has a character that is dangerous to the others in the party, or the character is argumentative or combative to the degree that it brings the game to a halt, it's very, very hard to run the game itself. Some examples (based specifically on comments where people across the internet have specifically flagged "player agency" in threads I've participated in): A game that requires players to start with pre-generated characters, or partially pre-generated characters does not take away player agency. The player doesn't participate in the full character creation process that RPGs often include, but they still have 100% control over what to do with that character. This isn't that different than an actor being given a role in a play or movie. They have a framework provided that they flesh out based on that framework. Even a script that includes all of the dialogue doesn't take away "actor agency," it just provides a more restrictive framework. Likewise, a game that requires the players to roll stats, even in order, does not alter player agency. Rules that might result in somebody sitting out for a period of time (death of a character, unconscious, or even the party splitting up), do not alter player agency. They reduce "in game time." This isn't all that different than playing defense in football, or when your team is at bat in baseball. In many sports you might be on the bench for most if not all of the game. While RPGs aren't sports, and they are designed for everybody to be able to play as much as possible, if the table is more concerned with continuity than providing a character to a player who's character just died hundreds of miles from civilization, then they might be out for a while. Some games are designed to specifically eliminate everybody (10 Candles, for example), but it doesn't mean that the ones that die early aren't still part of the game, and can't participate as spectators and experience the night in a meaningful way. Science fiction games are often more susceptible to something of this nature, if they are literally thousands, if not millions, of miles from anybody else, and somebody dies. An [I]Alien[/I]-based RPG would be of this sort, but it certainly would still be exciting to see how things turn out, even if you died early. The examples you've given - Cthulhu and Pendragon - don't (can't) inherently take away player agency. Although Cthulhu might have fewer safeguards in place. That's really going to depend on whether the players and the GM are all on the same page and they trust the GM to be fair. And that, to me, is really the most important thing. The DM and players need to be in agreement about what agency the players have. What they are and aren't allowed to do in the rules, and when they have control of their character and when they don't. I've never had issues with a player being upset when they've had to "sit out" because of certain circumstances. I give the players options (discussed at session 0, and out-of game discussions as well), but also in the moment, the table and the player are free to speak up if they want to address it specifically. When we're in a situation where it seems clear that it might be a while, I explicitly give them options and let them decide how we'll handle it. Almost always, they choose to sit out and enjoy the story for what it is, and what's going on at the time. I should also point out, that I consider all players to be participants, even when their character isn't present in a given scene. In an RPG, everything is in our heads, and we often forget things, fail to connect things, act out of character, etc. I do not restrict my players from participating, viewing them as part of the "collective memory/conscience/intelligence" of any given character or group of characters. That doesn't mean they get to act for others, but speaking up to remind somebody of something they found three weeks ago that might be important, is fine. We also operate under the general assumption that with all of the time the characters spend together, that they will relate experiences of importance away from the group when they have the chance. Unless there is something they specifically don't want to share, then everybody is at the table and they are assumed to know what happened once they are back together. [/QUOTE]
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