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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7741930" data-attributes="member: 42582">Likewise, but I think for different reasons.I'm not sure I follow your reasoning as to why the duke is pathetic. One way duke's get things done is by persuading others to do them; which is exactly what is being suggested in the example (ie the duke persuades the PCs to help).Well, like I said, I'm not talking about the PC's self-conception, I'm talking about the player's conception of his/her character (so the "I" in "I'm the toughest guy there is" is doubly-referring, to both player and PC - I think this is pretty common in 1st person RPGing conversation.)Being the toughest guy there is doesn't mean that I can shrug of anything - there might be some blows so heavy even the toughest guy there is can't handle them. But clearly (just to pick on an easy D&D example) the toughest guy there is isn't going to beaten by a kobold in a wrestling or boxing match!If the system allows that conception of the character to be refuted (eg because the PC does get beaten by a kobold in a wrestling match) then that is something that is important to me about the system. Like I tried to explain upthread, it's not a reason I won't like the system, but I want the system to be deliberate in the way it lets this happen. Deliberate isn't very precise here, and is a bit metaphorical, but I hope the earlier post gives some idea of what I mean. An example of a system that is non-deliberate in this respect would be Moldvay Basic, and other low-level D&D other than 4e.What produced the tone of puzzlement in my earlier posts, that you remarked upon, is that while I can read your words, and (as best I can tell) I can understand them, I'm having trouble grasping the aesthetic perspective that (A) doesn't, in general, care about protecting the player's conception of the PC, but (B) does get ultra-protective about it if (i) the aspect of that conception is what the PC thinks and feels, and (ii) the possible refutation is not coming from what, in the fiction, is a magical source.I'm not feeling the aesthetic significance of these particular points of demarcation - your categorization.(Of course, you're not under any obligation to explain/elaborate if you don't care to! I'm just trying to answer your question about puzzlement.)</blockquote>

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