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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 7742965" data-attributes="member: 16814">Huh?  Not following.  How does this make the party do anything -- they're faced with the same dilemma they started with, just with an option missing. You're confusing a force -- I make the party do an action -- with a turn of phrase meaning the party now has a harder choice to make than before.Sure, if you'd like to play D&D: the Arguing, I'm not going to contradict you.  Failing to bring a check to bear isn't anything like forcing a response by DM fiat.  I'm speaking only to the case of using mechanics to further play at appropriate times.  If you feel the time isn't appropriate to use mechanics, by all means, continue arguing between the players and the DM.My group, though, isn't there to pretend argue ad naseum and prefer, once the sides are set and the stakes posted, to move forward in the play. YMMV and all of that.It isn't?Okay, how about we change the lock to a guard we want to bypass and then we change the lockpicking to a bribery attempt?  Complications to the attempt can lose the offered amount without success or require offering more without surety.  The example of using complications to skill checks holds true even in social situations -- there's always a way for things to get worse.I have no problem with doing this, in fact, one of my loves as a player is acting as my character.  But, there's a discord here when I'm playing a character who isn't me and has entirely different strengths and abilities.  I disagree that I can play a character that is stronger than me and use the mechanics to effect this but I can't play a character who is more charismatic than I am or who has knowledge of magic I cannot but am forced to act these things out because of some idea that social interactions are sacrosanct and special.  You're more than able to continue to play that way, and your preferred edition clearly supports this with no codified social skills or resolution mechanics, but your insisting that its the proper way to play even in gamesystems were it's clearly NOT supposed to be that way is... weird.</blockquote>

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