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<blockquote data-quote="Guest 6801328" data-source="post: 7744001"><p>Ok, here's a (potentially) new way of looking at this:</p><p></p><p>A couple of posters have made the argument, "When somebody makes a successful attack roll against you, you can't decide that your character is unaffected, so why should you be able to do so when somebody makes a successful Persuasion roll against you?"</p><p></p><p>It's true: when somebody makes a successful attack roll against you, you can't decide to not take the damage. But how you respond to it, rationally or irrationally, is up to you. You could flee, you could fight back, you could try to parlay, you could burst into song, you could get angry/sad/friendly/horny/etc. Your response is entirely yours. It's totally reasonable to counter this by saying, "Nuh-uh...when somebody hits you with a sword and nearly kills you it's just not reasonable or realistic to suddenly feel like singing." But that's what makes RPGs so unpredictable and great: you <em>do</em> get to decide such things.</p><p></p><p>So let's say we can agree that a successful Persuasion check does in fact persuade a PC. Of what? I would argue that at most you succeed in persuading the PC that (for example) your plan is the best plan. Or that rescuing the Duke's daughter is a good idea. Or whatever. But that's not the same as persuading the PC <em>to do something</em>. </p><p></p><p>If it were, then all those anti-smoking ads would actually reduce smoking. Right? (For the uninitiated, all the research shows that smokers generally do believe the messages of those ads, and they just don't care.)</p><p></p><p>The difference between persuading somebody that something is true, and that as a result a certain course of action makes the most sense, is <em>vastly</em> different from persuading them to actually take action.</p><p></p><p>"Yes, I can see the sense of that. And I'm insulted that he thinks it's all about money for me, so I'm still not going to help him."</p><p></p><p>So, although I still don't love the idea that a dice roll dictates what my character believes, I'd be willing to compromise and agree that I can be persuaded of the truth of something. As long as how I respond to that truth is still mine to determine. And fair is fair: the same thing is true when PCs persuade NPCs: you can change beliefs but you can't compel behaviors.</p><p></p><p>(Unless magic, of course. Because only magic can also compel the behavior.)</p><p></p><p>This involves being careful with phrasing: you don't persuade the guard to let you through; you persuade the guard that you are friends with the King.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Guest 6801328, post: 7744001"] Ok, here's a (potentially) new way of looking at this: A couple of posters have made the argument, "When somebody makes a successful attack roll against you, you can't decide that your character is unaffected, so why should you be able to do so when somebody makes a successful Persuasion roll against you?" It's true: when somebody makes a successful attack roll against you, you can't decide to not take the damage. But how you respond to it, rationally or irrationally, is up to you. You could flee, you could fight back, you could try to parlay, you could burst into song, you could get angry/sad/friendly/horny/etc. Your response is entirely yours. It's totally reasonable to counter this by saying, "Nuh-uh...when somebody hits you with a sword and nearly kills you it's just not reasonable or realistic to suddenly feel like singing." But that's what makes RPGs so unpredictable and great: you [I]do[/I] get to decide such things. So let's say we can agree that a successful Persuasion check does in fact persuade a PC. Of what? I would argue that at most you succeed in persuading the PC that (for example) your plan is the best plan. Or that rescuing the Duke's daughter is a good idea. Or whatever. But that's not the same as persuading the PC [I]to do something[/I]. If it were, then all those anti-smoking ads would actually reduce smoking. Right? (For the uninitiated, all the research shows that smokers generally do believe the messages of those ads, and they just don't care.) The difference between persuading somebody that something is true, and that as a result a certain course of action makes the most sense, is [I]vastly[/I] different from persuading them to actually take action. "Yes, I can see the sense of that. And I'm insulted that he thinks it's all about money for me, so I'm still not going to help him." So, although I still don't love the idea that a dice roll dictates what my character believes, I'd be willing to compromise and agree that I can be persuaded of the truth of something. As long as how I respond to that truth is still mine to determine. And fair is fair: the same thing is true when PCs persuade NPCs: you can change beliefs but you can't compel behaviors. (Unless magic, of course. Because only magic can also compel the behavior.) This involves being careful with phrasing: you don't persuade the guard to let you through; you persuade the guard that you are friends with the King. [/QUOTE]
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