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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Primal" data-source="post: 4035735" data-attributes="member: 30678">While I appreciate your opinion of rules just being tools for narrative, I also believe that players should feel that they are always in control of their characters' fates -- whether that's merely an illusion or not (because the DM *is* the ultimate authority over what happens in the game). I've participated in games in which a DM's "temporary lapse of judgement" (for example: "You know, I'm think I'm gonna houserule these Climbing rules now, because it becomes more dangerous that way... oh, you wouldn't have tried it if you had known? Too bad -- your character's already descending!") in the form of sudden "judgement calls" have resulted in TPKs. Needless to say, it really didn't serve the story in an way. Like I already said, the rules should exist to prevent that, to give some mechanical way for the players to have an impact on what happens to their characters and to model the "physics" of the setting as accurately as needed. Yet I also agree with you and some of the posters that sometimes story (or "common sense") should govern over the mechanics -- if your character intentionally leaps off a cliff for no reason at all, he probably should die. However, if your character does that to escape a horde of orcs, he should know that he has at least a chance to survive. In the latter case I would walk out if my DM declared me automatically dead. Yet if I for some reason thought that my character's "automatical" death would serve a purpose or role in the story, the DM should respect my wish. This is why I like Indie RPGs, because in most of them the rules specifically strive (mechanically and thematically) to enhance and drive storytelling over simulation while still managing to retain the *relevant* (in light of the game's premise and thematic emphasis) mechanics for the players to have an impact over pretty much everything that happens in the story. Using that "high-level fighter falling from saddle" example: did someone think that it'd be a cool event in the story and frames a scene in which he is in danger of breaking his neck? Or is the result of a failed roll in a conflict and whoever has the storytelling rights narrates it that way? Here's the thing: in both cases the player has the mechanical ways (in many Indie RPGs, anyway) to prevent this from happening. if the player will not enter into a "conflict" over this, or does not "bet" on the 'storytelling rights' after a failed roll, it's his choice. He is effectively signaling that he does not care much what happens to the protagonist in the story, and leaves the fate of his unfortunate protagonist to the storyteller.  I see it being almost equivalent to leaping off the cliff.In D&D, you *could* ask your player to roll a Riding Check during a simple riding session, but that's hardly fair. In combat, he actually might fail a Riding Check, but unless he'd be out of HPs, a fall from saddle would not hurt him at all. So how to add some "realism"? I tend use a houseruled system in which rolling a "1" is not an automatic fumble, but if your "Fumble Confirmation Roll" is also a "1", something bad happens (the odds are 1/400). Maybe the horse breaks his leg, or maybe you fall from the saddle, and hit your head, falling unconscious. In any case, unless the PCs are in the middle of an adventure, this is usually a "Story Event" (Ars Magica -style) which has potentially tragic (but not automatically deadly) consequences for the PCs (e.g. it might even spring an instant adventure, as your unconscious fighter went riding alone and is found by trolls and dragged to their lair, so it's up to the other PCs to rescue him). Or, during a furious fight in a town a wizard who fails his Spell Penetration Check with a Fireball (rolling two "1s" in succession) against, say, a Marilith, might see his spell deflected by the demon's defenses and hitting a nearby inn (obliterating some of the patrons and the friendly innkeeper). Shortly put: it is a fairly rare event (to roll two "1s" in succession), but occasionally it does come up in play, so I use it to implement all sorts of touches of "realism" and story elements which are not covered by the rules.</blockquote>

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