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<blockquote data-quote="allenw" data-source="post: 4042961" data-attributes="member: 12992">Counting Coup-de-grace&nbsp; The coup-de-grace rules, and to a lesser extent the massive-damage and drowning rules, are concessions on the RAW's part to &quot;realism.&quot;&nbsp; I would summarize the message of these concessions to be: &nbsp; &quot;Hit points aren't everything, some mundane things can indeed (though not always 'will') just kill you dead regardless of your starting hit points.&nbsp; Being heroic can better your chances, but it's not a guarantee (especially against drowning).&quot;&nbsp; &nbsp; The rationale (and mechanics) for the coup-de-grace involve &quot;helplessness.&quot;&nbsp; Per the SRD:&quot;A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy.&quot;&nbsp; So, while &quot;heroism&quot; and hit points may continue to have a strong effect even in situations where there's literally &quot;nothing the hero can do to save themselves,&quot; even the mightiest heroes can be killed by a combination of helplessness, minor damage applied correctly, and bad luck (rolling a 1, or sometimes more).&nbsp; This is how the world works *for the PCs*, and thus it will inform their worldview.&nbsp; They should find it believable (though highly ironic, and probably unfortunate) that Naughty King Roger Dragonslayer was stabbed to death by a disgruntled peasant when discovered sleeping (literally) with the peasant's wife; they (and the RAW) recognize there are *some* situations in which neither &quot;plot immunity&quot; nor &quot;heroic toughness&quot; will always save one.&nbsp; I would consider it reasonable, and within the RAW, to rule that in your average &quot;knife-at-the-throat&quot; or &quot;crossbow-to-the-head&quot; hostage scenario, the NPC (or possibly even PC) hostage is &quot;helpless&quot; in this sense (barring PC-arranged distraction), and thus there is at least some risk of immediate death (and thus everyone involved should reasonably *act* like there's some risk of immediate death).&nbsp;&nbsp; But what about everyone's favorite bugaboo, falling damage?&nbsp; If you happen to be &quot;helpless&quot; when you fall (paralyzed, bound, nodded off while riding a horse due to that darn insomnia, or even deep in daydreaming about a peasant's wife), can the ground &quot;perform a coup-de-grace&quot;?&nbsp; For that matter, if you are &quot;completely at gravity's mercy&quot; (e.g. falling under circumstances in which, from your starting point to the impact point, there's absolutely nothing to grab onto, bounce off of, swing from, be cushioned by, or otherwise interact with, even birds; and you have nothing wing-like or parachute-like on your person; let's say you misjudge a Dimension Door while naked and end up in empty air 100' over a stone floor), are you &quot;helpless&quot;?&nbsp; Unless its extremely unusual ground, or your gameworld has an interesting interpretation of the &quot;Gaia&quot; concept, I'd have to say &quot;no&quot; (to the first question) by the strict letter of the RAW; coup-de-grace is a full-round, volitional action, and the ground doesn't get any actions, or have any volition.&nbsp; I do, however, think that the spirit of the RAW is consistent with such a possibility, and if I was inclined to rewrite or reinterpret the falling damage rules, I'd explicitly allow for such a possibility.&nbsp; That being the case, even if striving to have my gameworld operate consistenty with the RAW, I'd be okay with high-level people *very rarely* dying from &quot;falling badly&quot;.&nbsp; By the way, even by the approximate letter of the RAW, I do see one way that full-hp King Dragonslayer could be killled falling off of his horse, though not accidentally.&nbsp; Even if the ground can't perform a coup-de-grace, *the horse can*&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink&nbsp; &nbsp; ;)"&nbsp; data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> .&nbsp; If the horse notices that the King has nodded off (or is daydreaming about buxom peasant wives), and it really doesn't like him, it could take a full-round action to throw him at the ground &quot;really well,&quot; resulting in a coup-de-grace save.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="allenw, post: 4042961, member: 12992"] [b]Counting Coup-de-grace[/b] The coup-de-grace rules, and to a lesser extent the massive-damage and drowning rules, are concessions on the RAW's part to "realism." I would summarize the message of these concessions to be: "Hit points aren't everything, some mundane things can indeed (though not always 'will') just kill you dead regardless of your starting hit points. Being heroic can better your chances, but it's not a guarantee (especially against drowning)." The rationale (and mechanics) for the coup-de-grace involve "helplessness." Per the SRD: "A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy." So, while "heroism" and hit points may continue to have a strong effect even in situations where there's literally "nothing the hero can do to save themselves," even the mightiest heroes can be killed by a combination of helplessness, minor damage applied correctly, and bad luck (rolling a 1, or sometimes more). This is how the world works *for the PCs*, and thus it will inform their worldview. They should find it believable (though highly ironic, and probably unfortunate) that Naughty King Roger Dragonslayer was stabbed to death by a disgruntled peasant when discovered sleeping (literally) with the peasant's wife; they (and the RAW) recognize there are *some* situations in which neither "plot immunity" nor "heroic toughness" will always save one. I would consider it reasonable, and within the RAW, to rule that in your average "knife-at-the-throat" or "crossbow-to-the-head" hostage scenario, the NPC (or possibly even PC) hostage is "helpless" in this sense (barring PC-arranged distraction), and thus there is at least some risk of immediate death (and thus everyone involved should reasonably *act* like there's some risk of immediate death). But what about everyone's favorite bugaboo, falling damage? If you happen to be "helpless" when you fall (paralyzed, bound, nodded off while riding a horse due to that darn insomnia, or even deep in daydreaming about a peasant's wife), can the ground "perform a coup-de-grace"? For that matter, if you are "completely at gravity's mercy" (e.g. falling under circumstances in which, from your starting point to the impact point, there's absolutely nothing to grab onto, bounce off of, swing from, be cushioned by, or otherwise interact with, even birds; and you have nothing wing-like or parachute-like on your person; let's say you misjudge a Dimension Door while naked and end up in empty air 100' over a stone floor), are you "helpless"? Unless its extremely unusual ground, or your gameworld has an interesting interpretation of the "Gaia" concept, I'd have to say "no" (to the first question) by the strict letter of the RAW; coup-de-grace is a full-round, volitional action, and the ground doesn't get any actions, or have any volition. I do, however, think that the spirit of the RAW is consistent with such a possibility, and if I was inclined to rewrite or reinterpret the falling damage rules, I'd explicitly allow for such a possibility. That being the case, even if striving to have my gameworld operate consistenty with the RAW, I'd be okay with high-level people *very rarely* dying from "falling badly". By the way, even by the approximate letter of the RAW, I do see one way that full-hp King Dragonslayer could be killled falling off of his horse, though not accidentally. Even if the ground can't perform a coup-de-grace, *the horse can* ;) . If the horse notices that the King has nodded off (or is daydreaming about buxom peasant wives), and it really doesn't like him, it could take a full-round action to throw him at the ground "really well," resulting in a coup-de-grace save. [/QUOTE]

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