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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Fanaelialae" data-source="post: 8436378" data-attributes="member: 53980">That's not what I was referring to. The DM sets a win condition for the players. Rescue the dragon. If the PCs rescue the dragon, the players achieve the goal and the players win.If the PCs fail to rescue the dragon, the players have failed to achieve the goal, and the players lose.It is irrespective of whether they "win because they had fun". They could successfully rescue the dragon but have a miserable time of it. Or fail to achieve the win condition but have a great time of it.It's also irrespective of whether the characters win. The players can achieve the goal but the characters all die. Presumably, most if not all of the characters would not consider their own death a win condition. Their goal was more than likely to achieve the goal AND live to tell about it. Which distinguishes it from the players' win condition.</blockquote>