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<blockquote data-quote="The Little Raven" data-source="post: 3999680" data-attributes="member: 10095">Well, try expressing in worlds that support what you're saying. What does a player need besides the rules and examples to demonstrate how the rules actually function?It seems like you're being intentionally obtuse. Of course it's expected that a player would read the rules before playing, and a DM would read the rules before playing. However, without example towns and dungeons, the DM has to take the extra step of coming up with those things, which is more difficult for new people just getting a hang of the rules. He also doesn't have an example to measure his own creations against. Prior to 4e, he had to figure out what these random tables mean, see if he can put them to good use, and write up everything they tell him... or buy a setting/adventure which does the work for him. With 4e, he can simply pick up Fallcrest and use it without having to do any world building.3e1. Read the rules.2. Make characters.3a. Develop the starting locale, dungeons, and first adventure/quest. And this step can last a long time for some DMs, or be nearly impossible for others.3b. Purchase an existing setting/adventure.4. Play game.4e1. Read rules.2. Make characters.3. Play game with examples given.Here's where your misconception lies: that teaching/learning tools should be separate from the core rules. Again, you're saying that they should write the game to make it difficult for a new player to pick up and get into it unless he has veteran players to teach him. And that is exactly the kind of barrier to entry that needs to be razed into a smoking ruin.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="The Little Raven, post: 3999680, member: 10095"] Well, try expressing in worlds that support what you're saying. What does a player need besides the rules and examples to demonstrate how the rules actually function? It seems like you're being intentionally obtuse. Of course it's expected that a player would read the rules before playing, and a DM would read the rules before playing. However, without example towns and dungeons, the DM has to take the extra step of coming up with those things, which is more difficult for new people just getting a hang of the rules. He also doesn't have an example to measure his own creations against. Prior to 4e, he had to figure out what these random tables mean, see if he can put them to good use, and write up everything they tell him... or buy a setting/adventure which does the work for him. With 4e, he can simply pick up Fallcrest and use it without having to do any world building. 3e 1. Read the rules. 2. Make characters. 3a. Develop the starting locale, dungeons, and first adventure/quest. And this step can last a long time for some DMs, or be nearly impossible for others. 3b. Purchase an existing setting/adventure. 4. Play game. 4e 1. Read rules. 2. Make characters. 3. Play game with examples given. Here's where your misconception lies: that teaching/learning tools should be separate from the core rules. Again, you're saying that they should write the game to make it difficult for a new player to pick up and get into it [b]unless[/b] he has veteran players to teach him. And that is exactly the kind of barrier to entry that needs to be razed into a smoking ruin. [/QUOTE]

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