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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mercurius" data-source="post: 6429629" data-attributes="member: 59082">Which is hogwash! 4E is real, it is a valid form of D&D - just not one that was embraced by a large segment of the fan-base. It isn't D&D to "them," but it can still be real/count to you.This too is hogwash <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />. You immediately jumped to conclusions about what my view of 4E is, when all I was saying was that 4E wasn't well received by many - too many for WotC to feel that they could salvage it. This isn't a criticism of 4E itself; actually, it isn't saying either way what I think of the game as a game. But or the sake of full disclosure, I will offer a bit of my D&D bio, just so you know that I'm not out to get or invalidate 4E! I started playing in the early 80s and played somewhat regularly up through the early 90s. Then I played erratically, and then not at all in the late 90s, before getting swept up in the excitement about 3E - including reading the old Eric Noah site back in 1999. I played 3E and then a bit of 3.5, but took a hiatus from D&D for about five years. When I heard about 4E coming out I got excited, and started playing in late 2008. I ran a sporadic campaign for a few years and generally enjoyed my experience, although eventually grew tired of some of the "4Eisms" like the AEDU paradigm, reliance on the battlemat, etc. But I did enjoy the game, but was happy when 5E was announced - both because I wanted a more traditional D&D experience, but also because I wanted a living, supported game.As for Pathfinder, I've never played it. The reason is a combination of it being too complicated for my tastes and a feeling of "been there, done that" with 3.5. I enjoyed the novelty of 4E and like the fresh-but-classic feel of 5E. I suspect that if and when 6E comes out, I'll go with that too because I like to change things up every 5-10 years. But I do buy plenty of Paizo products because they're well-made and a great source of ideas and just fun to read. So here's the point: I liked 4E. I think it is a fun game. But when I talk about its acceptance by the fan base I'm not talking about what I like or don't like, nor is the popularity (or lack thereof) an indictment of 4E as a game. I think years from now 4E will be viewed as a kind of detour from the D&D tradition--provocative but interesting, even innovative. In some ways it is not unlike when a band tries to remake itself by offering a new sound. Some will adopt, but some will protest, asking for the sound they know and love. Some have described 4E as being like New Coke, which I think works to some degree. I've also described it as being akin to U2's Achtung Baby.Regardless, I hope that you continue to play the game that you love, regardless of what others say or think - that's the point, no? Now you might find fewer folks wanting to play 4E as the years go by, but I've found that most people are willing to play whatever the DM wants to run. I mean, the DM does most (or all) of the work, so....In other words, stand tall in your love of 4E! If you build it, they will come...I agree. The existence of Pathfinder may actually make 5E a better game than it would have been otherwise. Hopefully we'll see another OGL renaissance, like we did in the early Aughties.But I think there's a clever move here by WotC. Making 5E OGL increases the allure for people to convert to 5E - OSR folks, Pathfinder folks, etc. In other words, the OGL doesn't as much create competition but it potentially funnels people back towards "official" D&D.But I imagine that Pathfinder will remain popular - they have a very strong core community and at least if or until WotC comes out with more detailed modular options, Pathfinder will remain the game for those who like greater granularity. While Paizo may lose a few people who want a traditional D&D game--but want something simpler and/or want to play "official" D&D--there are a lot of folks out there like myself who don't actually play Pathfinder, but buy Paizo products. It may be that the actual number of Pathfinder campaigns goes down more than their actual sales.</blockquote>

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