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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Enrahim2" data-source="post: 8990141" data-attributes="member: 7039850">I think I see what you are gettig at, but I think I still have to strongly disagree with the generality of this claim. I can agree that if you have a scenario where a player can decide between wining and story, then there is clearly at odds. And this might in essence very often be the case for TTRPG scenarios.However this do not need to be the case. For one thing given a realy difficult scenario with a very large option space, there are usually room for signifificant creative expression in how you decide to approach the problem. And as far as I know it is generally recogniced that high level of creativity is often rewarded by high chance of success via the DM fiat mechanism of traditional TTRPGs.Another important nuance here is the difference between in story characters overcoming challenges, and the player overcoming challenges. The purest example I can think of for this is The Extraordinary Adventures of Baron Munchausen. Here one player is telling a story while the other players may chip in with a short question introducing a complication. Each complication typically involve some challenge that the character of the story need to overcome. However the main challenge for the storyteller isn't to come up with just any solution to the challenge (which might be quite trivial as there are very few limitations on what they can narate), but rather figuring how to narate overcoming the challenge in such a way that it inspires more questions, as that is what is fueling the "performance gauge" of the game. As such the player's active intent to overcome this challenge also explicitly involve trying to make a good story.Another take on this is my own creation storyboard. There main loop of that game involve the hero being presented by a challenge, and the players should figure out how the hero overcome that challenge. However the main challenge for the players are that this has to be done over a number of "scenes" that one of the participant deem "relevant. The traditional GM roles are distributed among the players, so the rules are not really providing any creative limitation at all. But in order to succeed the players need to spin a strong enough story that the judge (who also was the player that chose the challenge) deem enough of the scenes "relevant". Again actively trying to overcome the challenge drives choices that is good for the story.Going back to D&D 5ed it can be mentioned that they do have the inspiration mechanics that serve a similar purpose, though extremely watered down compored to the sources I feel quite certain inspired it.</blockquote>

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