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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7780314" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>Let's be clear. That's not AD&D. That's a video game. It's codified because it doesn't have a Dungeon Master. Might be a fun video game, but it's not D&D.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yeah, I know how it works at least on paper, though I've never played it, but I'm struck by the huge disconnect we are having here.</p><p></p><p>The thing I like about AD&D is that you can make any proposition you want, and then some mechanical resolution specific to your proposition occurs. So what you say and play literally matter, because they resolve in different ways that simulate the specific thing that you proposed to do. If the rules don't cover it, then the DM is strongly encouraged to make something up on the spot.</p><p></p><p>In PbtA games by contrast, the rules and not the propostions have primacy. You can say whatever you want, but what you say really doesn't matter, because regardless of what you say it is going to be mapped to some generic rules action. You literally cannot do anything that isn't on your character sheet. It's not just that you can't succeed at something because you suck at it, but if you don't have the move, you can't even try it because all propositions are just requests to perform specific moves. In fact, in the rule books I've read, they make it really clear that the move and not the proposition take primacy. If the GM is unclear about what move you are trying to perform, they should attempt to clarify what move you were trying to perform before attempting to resolve the action - as you put it "there is a back and forth between the MC and player on what move makes the most sense".</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, that's the thing that blows my mind. I have heard, though not encountered it, that there are DMs out there who, when encountering a proposition for which they don't have a clear rules understanding, simply say, "No, you can't do that." So I understand that there are some players out there that think that all you can do in D&D is what the rules provide for, that is, whatever the rules are silent on is forbidden rather than what the rules are silent on is permitted. But it never would have occurred to me to think that these players could be broken out of their mindset with regard to play by encountering a game with a vastly more limited proposition filter than D&D, namely something like PbtA. </p><p></p><p>I mean sure, there is no proposition that PbtA can't really handle. It has a mechanical resolution for everything. But conversely, it's really just the same set of resolutions for everything, and achieves that universalism only by ignoring details of the proposition and even to a large extent the fictional positioning. Your position in the game is literally just color for picking a move that is on your character sheet. Everything in PbtA is defined and codified by the actions that you can perform.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 7780314, member: 4937"] Let's be clear. That's not AD&D. That's a video game. It's codified because it doesn't have a Dungeon Master. Might be a fun video game, but it's not D&D. Yeah, I know how it works at least on paper, though I've never played it, but I'm struck by the huge disconnect we are having here. The thing I like about AD&D is that you can make any proposition you want, and then some mechanical resolution specific to your proposition occurs. So what you say and play literally matter, because they resolve in different ways that simulate the specific thing that you proposed to do. If the rules don't cover it, then the DM is strongly encouraged to make something up on the spot. In PbtA games by contrast, the rules and not the propostions have primacy. You can say whatever you want, but what you say really doesn't matter, because regardless of what you say it is going to be mapped to some generic rules action. You literally cannot do anything that isn't on your character sheet. It's not just that you can't succeed at something because you suck at it, but if you don't have the move, you can't even try it because all propositions are just requests to perform specific moves. In fact, in the rule books I've read, they make it really clear that the move and not the proposition take primacy. If the GM is unclear about what move you are trying to perform, they should attempt to clarify what move you were trying to perform before attempting to resolve the action - as you put it "there is a back and forth between the MC and player on what move makes the most sense". Yes, that's the thing that blows my mind. I have heard, though not encountered it, that there are DMs out there who, when encountering a proposition for which they don't have a clear rules understanding, simply say, "No, you can't do that." So I understand that there are some players out there that think that all you can do in D&D is what the rules provide for, that is, whatever the rules are silent on is forbidden rather than what the rules are silent on is permitted. But it never would have occurred to me to think that these players could be broken out of their mindset with regard to play by encountering a game with a vastly more limited proposition filter than D&D, namely something like PbtA. I mean sure, there is no proposition that PbtA can't really handle. It has a mechanical resolution for everything. But conversely, it's really just the same set of resolutions for everything, and achieves that universalism only by ignoring details of the proposition and even to a large extent the fictional positioning. Your position in the game is literally just color for picking a move that is on your character sheet. Everything in PbtA is defined and codified by the actions that you can perform. [/QUOTE]
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