Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Games Workshop notes that space fascism would be bad
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Ruin Explorer" data-source="post: 8467951" data-attributes="member: 18"><p>This is unintentionally hilarious.</p><p></p><p>If you compare Rogue Trader-era and even 2nd edition-era 40K to even 3rd edition-era 40K, let alone 4th/5th/6th, there's massive change.</p><p></p><p>And the death of any hope is part of that. In Rogue Trade and 2E, whilst there is plenty of grimdarkness (particularly in later 2E), there's often a humorous tone to affairs, and people often do work together, even when nominally enemies or disallowed from doing so. It was a lot closer to the WHFB-type scenario, where potentially anyone could fight anyone, but the Eldar fighting alongside Space Marines wasn't particularly surprising (for example), and the whole "hatred" angle wasn't as played-up.</p><p></p><p>3E and later ones (until recently, where it seems to have reversed again) basically murdered any humour, lightness or hope in the 40K setting. They even largely murdered the idea of people cooperating against a greater foe (though it does still happen in lore, the fraught-ness is massively played-up).</p><p></p><p>So if you don't want 40K to "change 1 tiny bit ever", what 40K are you talking about? The 40K of Rogue Trader/2E? The po-faced 40K of 3-6E? The over-the-top-epic 40K which lets the Empire off a bit easy of the post-Primaris era? Change has happened before and thinking it hasn't just means your perspective is off.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Change is arguably necessary but I don't think the change you're suggesting is happening matches that goal at all.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Yeah there is some sign of this, but the idea that this appeals to a "more diverse population with different values" is bizarre. Primaris Marines' core demographic is people who love the idea that some humans are "better" than other ones. Who didn't think Space Marines were "extreme" enough. Who think the Space Nazis of the Imperium should be the "good guys".</p><p></p><p>I'd say what you're describing is <em>prima facie </em>evidence that, if this is intended, GW is absolutely screwing up any move to serve a "more diverse audience with different value". Primaris Marines being what they are and the Empire being good guys are absolutely spot-on for the sort of players who turn up to a game convention in Nazi (or Confederate) uniforms. They're totally wrong for a broader audience.</p><p></p><p>If GW want to appeal to a broader audience, they need to play up their more diverse factions and the complexity of the setting, and a "Golden Age" can't come from Space Nazis.</p><p></p><p>I actually don't think the Primaris Marines stuff had anything at all to do with trying to reach a larger audience though. I think it's kind of the opposite - Space Marines were and remain the most popular faction to play as (despite there being like 3 of them, setting-wise - but a lot of the main armies are super-rare, setting-wise). However, loads of people had bought their Space Marine armies and didn't need a new one. So GW made their Space Marines into 2nd-rate marines, who were short and dumb-looking compared to these Primaris dudes, but absolutely stuck with the core Space Marine aesthetic, and thus millions of people re-bought and continue to effectively re-buy large section (or even all of!) their Space Marine armies. The doubling-down on what was successful didn't draw new people in or speak to a more diverse audience. It just made $$$. The "New Golden Age" thing wasn't really very thought-through. So best case is GW done messed up. Worst case, they want to double-down on the Imperium being the good guys despite carefully explaining they're the baddies (I tend to think not though - I think this was a business decision which is slightly unfortunate).</p><p></p><p>If GW do attempt to target a broader market, what I expect to see is some kind of "Rebel Marines" thing, where those Marines haven't turned to Chaos, but have turned away from the Imperium and its many evils, and they'd probably be Primaris Marines, and let people spend lots of money on Marines whilst saying "We're not the baddies!". There have been hints of this idea from time to time through all the history of 40K (Rogue Trader to present), but when you see that, that's when you know they're targeting a wider audience for real. From this statement I don't see that happening any time soon. But I do think we'll probably see it in the next couple of decades sometime. And yes the heads of some fans will explode.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ruin Explorer, post: 8467951, member: 18"] This is unintentionally hilarious. If you compare Rogue Trader-era and even 2nd edition-era 40K to even 3rd edition-era 40K, let alone 4th/5th/6th, there's massive change. And the death of any hope is part of that. In Rogue Trade and 2E, whilst there is plenty of grimdarkness (particularly in later 2E), there's often a humorous tone to affairs, and people often do work together, even when nominally enemies or disallowed from doing so. It was a lot closer to the WHFB-type scenario, where potentially anyone could fight anyone, but the Eldar fighting alongside Space Marines wasn't particularly surprising (for example), and the whole "hatred" angle wasn't as played-up. 3E and later ones (until recently, where it seems to have reversed again) basically murdered any humour, lightness or hope in the 40K setting. They even largely murdered the idea of people cooperating against a greater foe (though it does still happen in lore, the fraught-ness is massively played-up). So if you don't want 40K to "change 1 tiny bit ever", what 40K are you talking about? The 40K of Rogue Trader/2E? The po-faced 40K of 3-6E? The over-the-top-epic 40K which lets the Empire off a bit easy of the post-Primaris era? Change has happened before and thinking it hasn't just means your perspective is off. Change is arguably necessary but I don't think the change you're suggesting is happening matches that goal at all. Yeah there is some sign of this, but the idea that this appeals to a "more diverse population with different values" is bizarre. Primaris Marines' core demographic is people who love the idea that some humans are "better" than other ones. Who didn't think Space Marines were "extreme" enough. Who think the Space Nazis of the Imperium should be the "good guys". I'd say what you're describing is [I]prima facie [/I]evidence that, if this is intended, GW is absolutely screwing up any move to serve a "more diverse audience with different value". Primaris Marines being what they are and the Empire being good guys are absolutely spot-on for the sort of players who turn up to a game convention in Nazi (or Confederate) uniforms. They're totally wrong for a broader audience. If GW want to appeal to a broader audience, they need to play up their more diverse factions and the complexity of the setting, and a "Golden Age" can't come from Space Nazis. I actually don't think the Primaris Marines stuff had anything at all to do with trying to reach a larger audience though. I think it's kind of the opposite - Space Marines were and remain the most popular faction to play as (despite there being like 3 of them, setting-wise - but a lot of the main armies are super-rare, setting-wise). However, loads of people had bought their Space Marine armies and didn't need a new one. So GW made their Space Marines into 2nd-rate marines, who were short and dumb-looking compared to these Primaris dudes, but absolutely stuck with the core Space Marine aesthetic, and thus millions of people re-bought and continue to effectively re-buy large section (or even all of!) their Space Marine armies. The doubling-down on what was successful didn't draw new people in or speak to a more diverse audience. It just made $$$. The "New Golden Age" thing wasn't really very thought-through. So best case is GW done messed up. Worst case, they want to double-down on the Imperium being the good guys despite carefully explaining they're the baddies (I tend to think not though - I think this was a business decision which is slightly unfortunate). If GW do attempt to target a broader market, what I expect to see is some kind of "Rebel Marines" thing, where those Marines haven't turned to Chaos, but have turned away from the Imperium and its many evils, and they'd probably be Primaris Marines, and let people spend lots of money on Marines whilst saying "We're not the baddies!". There have been hints of this idea from time to time through all the history of 40K (Rogue Trader to present), but when you see that, that's when you know they're targeting a wider audience for real. From this statement I don't see that happening any time soon. But I do think we'll probably see it in the next couple of decades sometime. And yes the heads of some fans will explode. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Games Workshop notes that space fascism would be bad
Top