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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Bastoche" data-source="post: 2745389" data-attributes="member: 306">A lot of things was written since my post and I read most of them until I fell on an issue I think most people don't understand the way I see it.First I want to make it very clear to everyone that I have been actually playing such a campaign for 2 years. Second I want to make it very clear that it plain just does not work. And for many reasons. Third I want to make it very clear that we are all very experienced players.The game is either open-ended or it's not. Providing numerous plot hooks to the players for them to "choose" is NOT an open-ended game. At some point, the players realize it's just a serie of plot hooks and the fake "open-ended" feel disappear. If the players agrees before hand that the game will feature a "choice" of plot hooks rather than an open-ended feel, there's no problems. It's a healty (and fun) way to play. However, if the players pretend that it's an open-ended game, it will end up in frustration. And the very reason is that the DM won't agree with the players as to which decisions the PCs makes which are actually important. For example, suppose the PCs in one given playing session makes 12 decisions (turning down or picking up hooks and or making "other" (improvised by the players) decisions). The DM will take for granted that the picked up plot hooks are important. The players may feel that one of the "improvised" decision was really important. Then the next session or a few session afterwards, these "decisions" are never adressed again. Very frustrating.So if you want an open-ended game, it's either open-ended or it's not. That is, the DM provides a situation and using non verbal cues and even out-game conversation figure out what the players liked or disliked about the situation and builds up a story from those cues.I don't ask anyone to believe or agree with. All what I'm saying is that I actually experience this and it has taken us about 6 months (of playing once a week) to figure out what was the problem and we still haven't adressed it (should be done next session).We all agreed that the campaign was nice. We all like our characters. But each session is like torture. The DM is frustrated because we don't progress as quickly as we would like. We are frustrated because we meet many dead ends and we have the feeling that the challenges provided are all too difficult. We are looking for cues that aren't there and we are going nowhere fast. I strongly believe after playing this and reading a lot of things on another forum that it is impossible to have a DM right a story with "free" characters. The only way to have a DM story is through (mild to severe) railroading (voluntarily or not). Railroading is NOT a bad thing if the players expects it and have no problem with it. However if a DM wants to have "free" players, he cannot have "his" story. He must make the story "the PC's".I'll try to give an example from our campaign. It was agreed before hand that each of our character would acquire a certain prestige class depending on our backgrounds. Basically, we are to inflitrate a city while joining a secret underground organization. Once I was introduced to this organisation, I went on doing "stuff" to help that organisation. For example, I went on trying to establish a false identity etc. I did some of it during the play session and some of "via email" during "down time". Nothing of these suggestions were ever taken seriously because it wasnt on "the mighty list of plot hooks". It was considered unimportant by the DM since the "road" to these goals had been predetermined.I though we were going to have freedom in that game but no. We are to be actors in the DM's story but with a (limited) choice of lines to pick. It's either "scriptless" and open-ended or "multiscripted" and not open-ended. YMMVBaldur's Gate 2 is a multi plot hook game (with one unavoidable mege plot though). Does it feel open ended?Lost soul got it 100%.Barroomscore: You are basically saying that players who don't create PCs that would be built such as they would follow plot hooks (provided via background by the players to the DM so the DM can build "a" story around this). It's NOT open ended. It a close ended game where players who writes "adventurous" background admits they are willing as players to follow plot hooks willingly.Justin suggest something even more perverse IMO. I would hate to play one of your games unless you would say what lostsoul says "I'm going to send you on a quest for seals, who's in?" Your "happy medium" is exactly what I'm playing right now. And if I had agreed before hand that this was what I was to play in, I would be fine. But the DM wants to "pull us in his story" while giving us 100% latitude. It doesn't work. For it to work he either has to remove latitude by providing clear plot hooks (that's not open ended anymore) or by forgetting his story and letting us do whatever we want.</blockquote>

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