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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Henry" data-source="post: 2709513" data-attributes="member: 158">I grew up playing with the opposite - gamers who enjoyed the effective character, the fabulous riches, the fun stories that came out of doing outrageous activities. However, both experiences tend to limit our range of realizing what's possible - and one thing to note is that it is useful to have some kind of gauge on just how effective a speaker someone is, without the DM rejecting it out of hand based on personal preference.Looking at it thusly, there WAS no in-game social component in RPGs, other than what the players and DMs decided to bring; the rules clearly defined physical prowess, but left mental and social prowess totally up to the gamers at hand. Being forced to consider social prowess now can be seen as a good thing -- or it can be played strictly as much of a numbers game as combat is, and leave people feeling "dumbed down" from previous.EDIT - I amend part of my statement; there was some social prowess linked to charisma, but totally limited to first reactions via CHA, and what benefits of loyalty it gave towards henchmen. The number of groups I saw who used that in my area twenty years ago I could count on a closed fist.</blockquote>