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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Binder Fred" data-source="post: 6086132" data-attributes="member: 63746">Makes sense. It was this bit that sort of got me confused:<a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?331962-Gaming-W-Jemal-Planar-Quest-IC-(Prologue)&p=6085440&viewfull=1#post6085440" target="_blank"> ".. and still laying on the ground!"</a> By the by, do we have a better idea of Wade's touch AC, now that Ur has both hit and missed him with touch attacks?I, of course, happen not to agree with Skip's reasoning (are you surprised? <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />). From my point of view it rests wholly on an arbitrary binary prone/not prone view of things which has no basis in reality as we know it. 1. You get an attack of opportunity because your opponent has opened up his defenses. i.e. in this case Ur would get an (hypotethical) AoO, not because Wade just lies there, but because he's made himself stationary/dropped his guard by *starting to get up*. The attack of opportunity, by its very nature, therefore occurs not before the triggering action, but before the triggering action is completed, when Wade is neither down, nor fully up -- it's in fact this attempt to change his state that triggers the attack, and *that's* what the trip attempt, in this case, is against: not a prone foe, but a foe *attempting to get up*. 2. Anybody who has watched or experienced any fighting at all (be it TV or real life) knows that it's very possible indeed to trip someone as they are trying to get up IRL (by kicking out a suporting arm or leg, pushing at an unbraced moment, smashing the guy down, etc). Skip's reasoning is therefore based on a word for word interpretation of the rules without bothering to look at the underlying reality those rules are trying to model. Poor form in my book.Frankly, I have no idea why the whole of D&D history seems geared at making any manoeuver other than the straight damage-dealing attack so difficult. The rules for tripping, bull-rushing, disarming, etc are already so skewed againts their users that it takes a pile of Feats to make them halfway workeable. There's really no need to pile on any more on top, IMHO.</blockquote>

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