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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Teataine" data-source="post: 5782206" data-attributes="member: 6678036">There has to be a connection between what we're doing right now in the game and what we're doing in the game overall.Gamism does require the meaningful choice of being able to pick different tactics, strategies and solutions to problems.However, if all choices are "equal", in the sense that there's no clear advantage to them, then it's actually meaningless. So in fact I'd argue that there has to be some "operationally superior" aspect to at least some of the choices, otherwise you can't "step on up".Picking the non-optional choice "because that's what my character would do" or "because that's how the setting works" or "because it's more interesting this way" or whatever is antithetical to gamism. Thus, if you want to make gamist choices, some of them have to be clearly superior......or rather, there has to be a clear connection between the choice you make right now and what we're doing here overall (ie. trying to "win").In (post 3E) D&D it's clearly more optimal not to provoke an AoO unless the benefit outweighs the cost. That makes it a meaningful choice, because it effects your overal chances of getting your goal.------Also, regarding the "elephant in the room" from the OP. I think "munchinism" is what happens when you let a gamist loose on a simulationist system. Taking an disadvantage like "Stutter" or "Greasy hair" to get a +2 to attack. Powergaming or - to use a more positive term - Optimizing on the other hand is always desirable to a degree. Just like the DM won't throw an Ancient Red Dragon at the party at level 1, a good gamist player will recognize there is no sense in breaking the system to create Pun Pun or any other invincible build. He will create a character that can be appropriatelly challenged, because he wants to be challenged (So he can step on up.). But he won't intentionally gimp his character either.And while boardgames and cardgames can certainly scratch the "gamist itch" of challenging play very well, I think RPGs are still their own form with their own kinds of challenges that other games can't deliver. Challenges that happen within a shared fiction. That's why RPG gamism is possible and desirable.</blockquote>

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